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[734.62 --> 737.04] Which was your first CI-CD system that you used?
[737.14 --> 737.52] Do you remember?
[737.52 --> 746.38] The absolute first CI-CD system was actually a command line that I used.
[746.60 --> 747.70] Yeah, definitely.
[748.02 --> 753.76] But I think what you want to ask is more the first product that I used.
[753.90 --> 757.34] And this was, I think it was the team foundation server.
[757.70 --> 761.82] So, when you mentioned the command line, did you mean like rsync or FTP or SCP?
[762.20 --> 764.04] What exactly did you do on the command line?
[764.28 --> 765.38] Different things.
[765.38 --> 774.38] For example, I had some scripts, mount line scripts, which I used to just compile or execute the test.
[774.38 --> 782.28] So, my first build system was a batch file on my local computer, which I just could double click.
[782.74 --> 785.24] And then it executed the tests.
[785.24 --> 789.98] It compiled my code and it says, yeah, everything is okay.
[789.98 --> 792.60] And there is the deployable artifact.
[793.10 --> 802.38] And when it went into the distributed system, I usually added also an FTP where I just could move the code to the server.
[802.58 --> 804.88] And then it was on the server.
[805.10 --> 805.38] Okay.
[805.58 --> 806.70] What about today?
[806.84 --> 807.60] What do you use today?
[807.60 --> 811.48] Today, I use quite a variety of systems.
[811.92 --> 816.42] One of the products which I love is still TeamCity.
[816.62 --> 820.58] I love that quite a lot because you can do a lot of configuration.
[820.96 --> 827.48] I use usually TeamCity together with Octopus Deploy, which I also love as a tool.
[827.48 --> 836.60] But I see quite a strong movement in the moment into the direction of platforms like GitHub and GitLab.
[837.04 --> 853.90] So, at the moment, when I look at the clients which I'm working for, they are moving into this direction away from Jenkins, Octopus Deploy, TeamCity, and all of the Circle CI and into the direction of GitLab and GitHub.
[853.90 --> 855.92] So, these are now the big players.
[856.60 --> 859.78] Customers are going into this direction because there you have a platform.
[860.30 --> 867.06] Everything is there and you don't need to deal with different tools which you need to stick together.
[867.50 --> 868.28] That's interesting.
[868.72 --> 878.32] So, I think that now we are starting to discover another side of Romano because we know that you can put up a conference really well as well as a meetup.
[878.44 --> 879.50] But you also do other things.
[879.50 --> 883.90] So, when you don't organize various DevOps-related events, what do you do?
[883.96 --> 884.94] Because you mentioned customers.
[885.06 --> 887.32] There's more to it, right, than organizing events.
[887.52 --> 888.72] What exactly do you do?
[889.78 --> 890.08] Yeah.
[890.32 --> 893.18] I'm the head of DevOps at Zylke.
[893.72 --> 898.66] And there I have a whole unit of DevOps engineers and DevOps consultants.
[899.32 --> 902.50] And I bring DevOps forward at Zylke.
[902.50 --> 905.28] So, there is one side at Zylke.
[905.56 --> 914.40] I do a lot of trainings of people in the direction of DevOps so that we can deliver better quality, better software to our clients.
[914.88 --> 918.10] And on the other side, I'm also in client projects.
[918.76 --> 928.72] And there I usually are in projects where we are doing an IT or an HR transformation or where we are doing a DevOps transformation.
[928.72 --> 933.76] And I consult their different clients into this direction.
[933.76 --> 936.48] And I also educate their people.
[936.84 --> 936.92] Okay.
[937.20 --> 938.62] So, how large is your team?
[938.72 --> 944.58] The team is roughly, at the moment, I think, 31 people at Zylke.
[944.72 --> 947.08] But this is only in Switzerland.
[947.32 --> 950.98] Of course, there are other people around the world which are also doing DevOps.
[950.98 --> 951.48] Yeah.
[951.84 --> 961.22] So, your team is 31 DevOps engineers that work with various customers that you consult, help with DevOps-related projects.
[961.46 --> 962.70] How many projects do you have?
[962.92 --> 963.52] Quite a lot.
[963.74 --> 971.18] And the different people which are in my team, they work for different customers and also with different engineers.
[971.18 --> 979.42] So, it is not only that these projects are under my responsibility, they are under different people's responsibility.
[979.84 --> 984.04] But my team members are working in these projects.
[984.58 --> 984.84] Okay.
[985.28 --> 994.24] So, I'm thinking that you must have seen many projects this year that went well, as well as many projects which didn't go so well.
[994.50 --> 997.24] Is it something that you can talk about without giving any names?
[997.24 --> 1000.74] We don't have to give any names, but things that worked well, things that didn't go so well.
[1000.94 --> 1001.70] What do you think about that?
[1001.94 --> 1002.56] Yeah, sure.
[1002.86 --> 1013.24] When we think about things that went well, there is, especially at one customer where we are creating a whole transformation.
[1014.04 --> 1019.26] And what we did there is they are going through an agile transformation.
[1020.20 --> 1025.58] And one of the things you need to have for an agile transformation is technical fundament.
[1025.58 --> 1029.42] So, that you can do this transformation.
[1030.42 --> 1033.72] And we were thinking how we can do that.
[1033.98 --> 1043.10] And we built up an agile release train for that with different teams in there, which were focusing on different aspects of this transformation.
[1043.10 --> 1048.14] There is one team which is more focusing on the governance part.
[1048.26 --> 1055.46] One team which is more focusing on, for example, the continuous integration and continuous delivery pipeline.
[1055.66 --> 1060.12] And one team which is more focusing on the containerization.
[1060.52 --> 1061.68] So, it's about that.
[1062.16 --> 1064.32] And that worked very well.
[1064.60 --> 1068.18] We are now in the fourth PI, which we are doing.
[1068.18 --> 1070.44] And that's quite cool.
[1070.82 --> 1074.84] And we had also a very, very, very good learning in there.
[1075.06 --> 1078.70] From the beginning, we identified who the customer is.
[1078.78 --> 1082.28] And we said, we want to deliver to this customer.
[1082.60 --> 1090.56] And we said, okay, everything what we are doing must be something that the customer can use.
[1090.56 --> 1091.88] And we started with that.
[1092.62 --> 1101.92] The thing was that in the first sprints, which we did, we saw that we were delivering to the customer, but only to the customer.
[1102.22 --> 1103.94] But the customer was not using it.
[1104.14 --> 1105.12] So, we changed that.
[1105.26 --> 1106.38] And we said, no, no.
[1106.62 --> 1110.08] From now on, the customer needs to use it.
[1110.16 --> 1115.64] So, we put that in the definition of done, that the customer needs to take that over.
[1115.64 --> 1124.04] But that was also not enough because we also had our system demos or our review meetings where we showed that.
[1124.34 --> 1125.82] And that was not enough.
[1126.16 --> 1133.16] And now we said, okay, when we are demoing stuff, not our people are demoing it.
[1133.44 --> 1138.14] The customer needs to do the demonstration how he uses it.
[1138.60 --> 1141.90] And that's a very strong thing you can do.
[1141.90 --> 1145.48] So, always deliver directly to the customer.
[1145.70 --> 1150.24] Let the customer show what you have delivered and how he is using it.
[1150.48 --> 1155.26] And that would also be one of my recommendations to do in the future.
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