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**William Morgan:** Yeah. Everyone will be smiling behind their mask... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Exactly, yeah. You can't see it. So yeah, if they're frowning -- well, actually, if they're frowning, you can see. But anyways, anyways... Anything interesting happening in the next six months for Linkerd that you want to share? Anything coming up? |
**William Morgan:** Oh, boy. Gosh, I feel like we've just had all the interesting things happen at once. We had graduation happen just like a few months ago, 2.11... And now we're planning 2.12, and 2.13... Do we have anything specific beyond some really cool releases coming up? I don't know... A lot of what I've been ... |
But yeah, I think from Linkerd - you know, a couple more releases... We're gonna keep going down the path of policy... The other big thing we wanna focus on is a mesh expansion, which means running the data plane, the proxies themselves, which are these ultra-light Rust proxies - running them outside of Kubernetes... C... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Mm-hm. There is a world outside of Kubernetes. Sometimes for me it's hard to believe as well. |
**William Morgan:** It's scary. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** William, this has been everything I imagined it would be. Thank you very much for making the time. It's been my pleasure, thank you. |
**William Morgan:** It's been an absolute pleasure to be here, and thank you for having me. |
**Break:** \[23:32\] |
**Gerhard Lazu:** So the first time and the last time that we spoke it was two KubeCons ago; that's how I measure it. And when I say KubeCons, I mean KubeCon North America. That was Changelog episode 375; we had a discussion with the Prometheus core maintainers, and you were one of them... And that was 2019, as I menti... |
**Frederic Branczyk:** So yeah, actually, since 2019, a lot has happened. I guess I can go chronologically from that point on. So in 2019 I actually did give a keynote at KubeCon in Barcelona - so that was the other KubeCon that was happening that year - about the future of observability. That was together with Tom, wh... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yes. |
**Frederic Branczyk:** So we were talking about a couple of predictions that we felt like were going to happen to the observability space, and one of my predictions was that I felt like continuous profiling was going to establish itself as an area within observability. And for that keynote I had put together a proof of... |
I guess because of the history of when I worked at CoreOS, and we got acquired by Red Hat, I had quite a lot of interest from investors pretty much immediately... But at the same time, I didn't feel like we had explored the space enough to take on VC money immediately, and raise money that we wouldn't know what to do w... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I would like to stop you there, because this is really important, and I don't think listeners know this... Having looked at what you're about, it's not enough to observe, you have to understand. I think this understanding runs very deep for you, and I can see the connection to "You have to understand.... |
**Frederic Branczyk:** Yeah. Thank you for making that point. I think I know where you're going. So we started the company, and a really good friend from CoreOS times, he many years ago at a GopherCon he told me "If you ever start a company, I wanna be the first person to work with you. And he kept his word. In Novembe... |
\[27:56\] Essentially, profiling itself has been around ever since programming has. When we did our research, we found it had gone back at least to the '60s and '70s, because everybody, as soon as they started programming, needed to understand what was happening with the code that they had been writing. What was using ... |
There was one thing that kind of led to us being able to do this in production and always on, and one of those things is what we call sampling profiling. So instead of tracing exactly absolutely everything a process does, we only a hundred times per second look at what the program does at that particular moment in time... |
So for some hyperscalers this was already enough to build continuous profiling tools for them to consume internally, because they could do it always-on in production now. |
Now, as it goes with so much cloud-native technology and developments, that wasn't necessarily accessible to everyone... And one of the really amazing things that also have happened somewhat recently has been eBPF. eBPF allows us to capture this data at an even lower overhead, because we can already capture it in the f... |
So that was definitely also a really big part of what created a movement... But this doesn't really have to do with overhead. There's also another aspect, which is just kind of Kubernetes unifying the observability space, in a way. And I think we might have talked about this in our last session, actually... The way tha... |
This is super-powerful, because all of a sudden, when I say pod, and you say pod, we immediately know what we're talking about. So this is much more cultural than it is technological, but it means that our knowledge is transferable. So this is incredibly powerful... And then the last piece is putting all of this togeth... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** \[31:38\] And it doesn't really matter what language you're using, right? Because everything runs as a pod. It doesn't matter whether it's Java, whether it's Go, whether it's Erlang... It really doesn't matter. The point being is, you run this agent on your Kubernetes worker node, where all these pods... |
I like the way you're thinking about this. I was going to ask you, Parca.dev is the thing that you're opening up to the world at this KubeCon, and I was going to ask you why do you Parca. But I think the answer is "To cost-optimize." But maybe there's something more to it... |
**Frederic Branczyk:** First of all, I think -- and we said this in our announcement as well... I think just the people that we are and the company that we are building - I think we needed to have an open source piece to be ourselves. So even if there wasn't anything else, that would probably would have already been en... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** So if I understand correctly, it's your need to understand what the system does, and the itch that you're scratching is you wanting to understand what is happening on those nodes. So that's why you did it. As simple as that. |
**Frederic Branczyk:** Absolutely. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I love that. I love that. |
**Frederic Branczyk:** The back-story actually goes a little bit further than where I started. The reason why I even went into putting together that proof of concept with ConProf was because I read a paper by Google where they described these methodologies, how they used these kinds of methods to cut down on infrastruc... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** So I got the tool up and running in seconds. That just shows easy it is to get started. This was just local. I didn't want to venture in our production Kubernetes cluster, because I have something else in mind for that... But in a few seconds, I could access the UI, I could see the CPU time, and the U... |
When I first heard of Parca a few weeks back, I checked it out, and it was looking good, but it wasn't as polished as it is today. Just in a matter of a few weeks, I was astounded by how fast you're iterating on it. And I think that it's your new coffee machine. Is that it? What's the secret? |
**Frederic Branczyk:** I would say it has a part in it... \[laughter\] |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Okay... |
**Frederic Branczyk:** \[35:41\] I think the UI is actually an evolution of several attempts at it. The very first one was actually within our closed source beta product, where... You know, when we launched it in February this year, we used this to work really closely with a couple of early users to understand what is ... |
I think there's so much dogfooding that was going on from basically day one, because this is a tool that we've built for ourselves. We wanted to put that work into it. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** What do you use the tool for? This is really interesting. I love this story. I mean, there's a theme here... Every great product dogfoods itself. And the developers, and the product, and the entire team that works on it, uses it on a daily basis, understands the shortcomings, and fixes them, maybe eve... |
**Frederic Branczyk:** Yeah, so actually, this is a cool topic that I think we even wanna run blog post series about, because I think there are just so many aspects to this that I would love to talk about... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Can we have a short answer? Because this is a short piece... But it's obvious that we need a much longer one. |
**Frederic Branczyk:** Yeah. Basically, boiled down, Parca itself is a really performance-sensitive software. It has a specifically designed storage and query engine, so that we can actually do all these amazing things with continuous profiling. So we use Parca to optimize Parca... This is kind of a vicious cycle, beca... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Oh, yeah. |
**Frederic Branczyk:** So it's really addicting almost. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I love that. I love that. We do the same thing; I'm a big fan of that. That's it. That loop is one of my favorite loops. Amazing. So just to switch gears a little bit, and think about the KubeCon and what's going to happen this week... What are you looking forward the most at this KubeCon? Is there so... |
**Frederic Branczyk:** I think - of course, this probably reflects my own interests quite a lot, and what we do with Parca as well... But I'm really excited about how the eBPF space is evolving into more of a production-ready state, if that makes sense. I feel like it's very similar to the first hype wave of service me... |
And so I feel like we're kind of at a turning point with eBPF as well, where so many people have gotten their hands on it that we're suddenly seeing all these really incredible applications for it. So I'm really looking forward to a bunch of the eBPF talks that are coming out. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Any specific talks? |
**Frederic Branczyk:** There's one by Derek Parker who works on the Delve debugger, which is kind of the de facto debugger in the Go community. I think he's doing some really interesting things. There's even some integrations into the debugger with eBPF. I find that really interesting... But the really cool thing about... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Hm. That sounds interesting. So anything eBPF-related, that's where your interest is... You and Derek Parker, did you say? |
**Frederic Branczyk:** Yeah. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** \[39:51\] Okay. I've heard Derek Parca... Derek Parker, okay... \[laughter\] That's a good one. Park- everywhere, right? |
**Frederic Branczyk:** That was completely unintentional... \[laughs\] |
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