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**Gerhard Lazu:** I see. \[laughs\] Right. That's interesting, surfing. I've never tried it. I think out of the two activities, that sounds a very interesting one that I would be up for trying. So let's see where KubeCon happens next in the U.S. Is it Detroit? I've heard Detroit being mentioned. Is that real? |
**Dan Mangum:** Yup. They announced yesterday -- KubeCon EU I believe is in Valencia, and KubeCon North America is gonna be in Detroit, which is... I'm pumped about it, coming to the Midwest. I think that's kind of exciting, because we sometimes miss out on some events in the Midwest. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** \[32:10\] I see, okay. No surfing there, I'm imagining, in Detroit, being in the Midwest... |
**Dan Mangum:** I don't think so... |
**Jared Watts:** I haven't heard of it as a surfing destination... |
**Dan Mangum:** Concrete surfing maybe. \[laughter\] |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah. Or Valencia. That's a good one. Okay... Yeah, that's more for like yachting, I suppose, or something like that. Okay. So let's talk about the big news. Crossplane was announced for incubation status, was it a few weeks ago before KubeCon? That is really big, and I'm wondering what changed for yo... |
**Jared Watts:** Yes, the incubation thing is definitely something that I put a lot of effort into, with the due diligence, and making sure that the proposal is really covering all aspects of the project... So I've got a good finer on the pulse in terms of the project growth, and the maturity, and all that sort of stuf... |
So one thing that's kind of interesting is that it is a bit of a long process, so the vetting and diligence is pretty thorough... Which is a good thing, because that's how you -- you know, projects that make it to this level are given a stamp of maturity, and the ecosystem as a whole can have confidence in them that th... |
So the process was a long thing, so it was a bit of a rolling experience there, where if the project is still maturing, and while we're almost at incubation but not quite... So with the announcement itself though, we absolutely saw a new influx of adopters and users coming in to check out the project. Looking at some o... |
Day to day how the project is run is not changing, because the governance is there, and the project release processes and all these sort of things are pretty healthy and really well done... So that doesn't change. But the influx of people coming, and more people to try it out, and the community continuing to grow becau... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Right. What about you, Dan? What makes you most excited about Crossplane reaching incubation status? |
**Dan Mangum:** Absolutely. Well, Jared touched on a bunch of great things there, and Jared absolutely loved this effort, and a ton of effort and work went into it... So we're very appreciative to all of that that he put in, and just let us sit back and work on the project. But kind of building on some of the things th... |
I absolutely love talking to folks who don't know anything about Crossplane and wanna hear about the big-picture vision, and that sort of thing... But we can really kind of get down to brass tacks and talk about more tangible things when folks come in and already have a little bit of an idea of what we're trying to do.... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** It's crazy that -- I remember 2019, when we started talking about Crossplane, this new thing... Some people had heard of it, but it was still very new. It took -- I'm not sure at what stage you were at then, but now you're incubating... There was a sandbox stage? Were you in sandbox back then, two yea... |
**Jared Watts:** We weren't even part of the CNCF at that point, in our first conversation... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Okay... When did you join the CNCF, by the way? |
**Jared Watts:** In June 2020. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Okay... So it took about a year and a bit to go from sandbox to incubation. |
**Jared Watts:** Yeah, exactly. We started the process to apply for incubation probably March of this year, so it was about nine months or so that we started getting serious and putting the proposal out there, and then the process itself took about six months. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** \[36:06\] Yeah. I think that in my mind explains a lot about the level of busyness that I've seen, and the level of activity... Because even before then, I can imagine this must be a really thorough process, as you mentioned, for a good reason... And it's great to see this journey that you're on. I me... |
Which is the best way of, first of all, finding out about Crossplane, starting to use it, and then once you get a bit more intermediate in the Crossplane usage, what do you do next? What does that trajectory look like in your mind, Dan? |
**Dan Mangum:** Yeah, so a lot of folks start off with just coming to our getting started guide, and getting introduced to what that looks like... And one of the decisions we've made in our Getting Started guide is to incorporate some of our actual more advanced concepts early on. And when I'm talking about more advanc... |
So usually, folks will go through that process, and in our Getting Started guide we have an abstraction of a database and show how that can create an RDS instance on AWS, or a Cloud SQL instance on GCP, all from the same spec, from the actual resource that you're creating in your Kubernetes cluster. |
So generally, what folks will do is they'll go through that process and they'll start to kind of see the bigger picture. And then honestly, a lot of the way that folks continue to dive into the project is, number one, looking at some of the content that we've put out there on YouTube, and that sort of thing... Victor j... |
One of the really rewarding things to see as a maintainer is community members helping other community members. Because you know, earlier on it was mostly community members coming along and asking maintainers questions, and then answering those, and that didn't scale super-well. Now that we have end users helping each ... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah, building that community is super-important. I know that is such a huge and important part of what you do every day. I mean, I see everywhere - Twitter, YouTube, Slack... So much activity, and now that will only pick up. And you're right, there's a point where people have to start helping one ano... |
So I think that is one important thing for people listening to this, to try and help others. If you're into Crossplane and you know something - help your friend that you may not know yet, but get to know him/her, and see how you can help one another out. |
One thing which I would like to say is that the GCP provider - there was a very recent version, I think 0.18 or 0.19, I can't remember exactly... That upgrade was very interesting, and I think that those things will become -- when you deprecated the GKE Cluster for the cluster, so there was like an export to be made, a... |
**Jared Watts:** \[40:11\] Yeah, that's a really good question. There's a couple of thoughts that come to mind. First is that there was a lot of thought put into that. It wasn't an easy decision of "Oh, hey, let's just make this change here and roll that out." Dan drove that effort to begin with, so he made a proposal ... |
So Dan did a really good job laying all that out, putting it out to the community, and then spending a couple of months actually with getting feedback and kind of understanding it. So that was a good thing there. And then Hassan did a really good job of writing up a migration guide. |
So something I learned from the Rook project - you know, storage orchestration for Kubernetes - that I'm also involved with, is that migrations are one thing, but if you don't provide any path at all for people, then that could be a failure. So there are some manual steps with that upgrade, or the migration, and having... |
And then the last comment I'll make there is that, you know, there's different levels of maturity and guarantees within the Crossplane ecosystem itself also. So Crossplane as a core project - you know, the functionality and machinery and tooling to build your own custom platforms etc, that is at a 1.0 or 1.5 almost now... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** It's very nice that you've laid out all that background, because I remember looking at the issue that Dan opened - it was really good, really well thought out. There wasn't a lot of engagement on the issue. Maybe that happened on Slack, or elsewhere... But I really like that I could follow the trail a... |
What I want to say is that having gone to the end, having gone to the latest version of the GCP provider, everything that I thought it would have, it had. So the new cluster resource behaved a lot better than the GKE Cluster one. So it was worth getting there. And once I had that, I found the extra properties, especial... |
So as we are about to wrap this up, anything coming in the next six months that you'd like to share with us? |
**Dan Mangum:** So I'll talk a little bit about some of the future things that we have planned for Crossplane. And some of this -- you know, Crossplane, as we all know here, is a CNCF project, so when I talk about what I want to see in Crossplane, that doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna happen... It's my personal desi... |
\[43:56\] One of the things that I am really interested in is our provider deployment model. Right now, the way provider packages work is it's essentially a stream of YAML, which is a bunch of different CRDs, and then it's a reference to an image that lives on a registry somewhere, or is already in your cluster, that y... |
Now, the way that we actually set up that controller for you when you install a provider is we create a Kubernetes deployment, and that's the only way we do it right now. That doesn't have to be the case, right? The deployment is one way to manage your workload within a Kubernetes cluster; you could also create a Knati... |
So those are a lot of different options, but essentially, what you can imagine there is an interface for different provider deployment models, and you can say "I'd like to install my provider, and I want Crossplane to use this deployment engine for it to set that up, and I can manage it in a certain way." |
What that also gives you the ability to do is you may not manage your core Crossplane control plane, but you may manage some of the custom logic that you wanna introduce into it. Obviously, thinking of a hosted control plane model you can think about that in a -- an external organization could run your control plane fo... |
So thinking about some flexibility around that and some partitioning as well. Right now when you install a provider of AWS, you get all of the provider types installed. You really shouldn't have to do that... So really customizing and making more granular provider installs and API extension mechanisms are something tha... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I have so many questions to that... We are out of time, but I really wanna hear what Jared is thinking about for the next six months. |
**Jared Watts:** Awesome, yes. Quick thing for Dan there - you mentioned it's a community-driven project, and he has his own proposals etc. the community can always weigh in and see if there are good ideas... Historically speaking, Dan's proposals tend to be pretty well accepted and good ideas... So what he's saying th... |
So for me - I'll quickly throw in two things that I think are really exciting over the next six months. The provider coverage and the custom compositions. Provider coverage - we'll have a lot more to share about that pretty soon, but basically doing code generation to automatically generate Crossplane providers for the... |
And then the other one - custom compositions. The composition engine is fairly powerful, where you can compose together all of your resources and infrastructure, and then provide those as the high-level abstraction to developers... it's a powerful model, but then there's some things we could do to improve that. If you ... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Well, all I can say is please continue blowing my mind the way you are. There's a very special way that you blow my mind every single time I talk to you. This is amazing. Thank you very much. |
\[47:58\] The other thing which I'd like to say is stay cool. Crossplane is really cool. Just keep doing what you're doing, and keep reconciling. I'm enjoying KubeCon, but especially reconciling. So thank you Dan, thank you Jerod. This has been a pleasure. |
**Dan Mangum:** Awesome. |
**Jared Watts:** Right on. Thank you so much for having us again, Gerhard. I always love to be on this show. |
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