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My most important take-away about eBPF is that it's all about kernel events. And events - I mean, I love eventing. It's a great concept. And I think the way it's implemented - the underpinnings are really solid. I can see some amazing things coming out of this. |
**David Ansari:** Have you used eBPF in the projects you're working on? |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Not yet, but all that is going to change in the next few months. So Parca.dev - that's one of the first things that I'll be setting up. And the next one will be Cilium. Cilium, with Hubble, and a couple more things... I think the level of observability from a kernel perspective is unique. I haven't se... |
**David Ansari:** One good experience was the speaker support. So there was a dedicated Slack channel, and support was answering, with a response time less than a minute. So when we asked a question, it just got flagged, and someone was saying they will look up the answer or get in touch with us. That was really great ... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Well, that sounds like VIP speaker support to me, and I'm glad that it worked so well in practice. |
**David Ansari:** It was, it was. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah. I'm really happy when ideas like that work well out in practice, because you never know what's going to happen... But it just goes to show that KubeCon is a really well organized event. And there's so many moving parts to it... It's just crazy how much happens behind the scenes. And big props to... |
Okay, David. Well, thank you for making the time. This was an absolute pleasure. Looking forward to meeting you at the next KubeCon. |
**David Ansari:** Thank you for having me. |
**Break:** \[01:06:32.18\] |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I'll ask the question that Steven was afraid to ask - and afraid, I'm doing air quotes. What even is Sigstore? \[laughter\] |
**Dan Lorenc:** So that's a funny story, actually... That question came from a chat between me and Steven, and we were just messing around a little bit. So I was actually the one that asked that question to Steven. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I see... \[laughter\] That's historic there... |
**Dan Lorenc:** Yeah, he has a funny habit of dropping my name off and then posting our conversations, which I love to read on Twitter. He's great. \[laughter\] |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Okay, so what did he answer when you asked him that? He just didn't...? |
**Dan Lorenc:** Yeah, so Sigstore is an open source project that is part of the Linux Foundation. It's not like a lot of traditional open source projects, because there's a bunch of awesome code on GitHub and in the community, but it also has some production infrastructure that that community is operating as a public b... |
So it's a couple of different components, but overall, the goal of the Sigstore project is to make it easy and free to sign and verify open source software. |
We were heavily inspired by the LetsEncrypt model. So if you're familiar with LetsEncrypt, what LetsEncrypt did, operating a free certificate authority for web browsers... They made it so all of the web traffic became encrypted over a couple of years. These have been around since the early '90s, but we just weren't see... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** How is this different from PGP? |
**Dan Lorenc:** Yeah, it's a great question. So PGP has been around for a while. PGP is a bunch of open source standards for cryptographic operations. This includes things like signing, verification, but also things like encryption of files, of messages, of all of these different things. So PGP is kind of like a huge c... |
Sigstore takes a slightly different approach. It uses some different encryption standards, some slightly more modern ones. Particularly, we really rely on things like transparency logs, which weren't really around back when PGP got started; they'd really taken off across the browser ecosystem in probably the last decad... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Okay. So one of the things that I always use PGP for is signing my git commits. So I'm wondering, what else should I be signing, and what should I be using from the Sigstore ecosystem to sign things? |
**Dan Lorenc:** \[01:12:00.12\] Yeah, so signing git commits is a pretty important topic. There's like the git commit -S flag, which uses your PGP keyring, which is set up in your computer, to sign those commits. That integration is actually baked pretty heavily into git. There's dozens of different ways to sign things... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Okay. |
**Dan Lorenc:** But separately, you wanna sign everything. It's kind of where we're going here in this world. Signing commits is great; they can be used to back-up and provide other guarantees about who actually authored those commits as they travel from your computer, to GitHub, to forks across GitHub, to package mana... |
As it gets pushed up to a repository and it gets tagged, you wanna sign those tags too, so somebody knows that the release was authorized. As those tags get pulled down and compiled into artifacts, it makes sense to start signing those, too. And that's where Sigstore is starting to see the most adoption right now, in s... |
And the kind of cool thing is because the container image standards have gotten so pervasive, we're starting to see people cram all their things into container images that aren't even container images. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Oh, yes. |
**Dan Lorenc:** So the WebAssembly modules have a little specification for how to store those in a container image without having a whole new package manager. So all these artifacts that come out from your build system, from your CI/CD system are very important to sign too, because there's tons of different attacks tha... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** I think Go has possibly the best time when it comes to signing, because you can do it from scratch, and then you don't worry where from the scratch comes from... I think it's from scratch; it's just empty, there's nothing there... But what about when you do, for example, from Ubuntu? That happens stil... |
**Dan Lorenc:** Yeah. We're talking about kind of base images and image hierarchies and stuff here when it comes to containers, but... Yeah, a couple things there. Go has some awesome support for static compilation as a Go binary, which means you can throw it into a container image without any of the other operating sy... |
There's been some other recent work in the OCI (Open Containers Initiative) to start propagating a lot more meta data around. One of the issues that's been around for a while is that if you did it from Ubuntu and you threw a Go application into there, it's really hard to figure out after it was built that it was actual... |
Now that we have that new breadcrumb (you know, from the fairytale), you can follow that back and you can find the Ubuntu image and you can check to see if that was signed by the original publisher. So this is something that just in the last couple of months has started becoming possible. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yeah, that's really cool. |
**Dan Lorenc:** \[01:16:02.01\] A good use case there, if you wanna see that in practice, is actually something that fits right between from scratch and Ubuntu, which are the distroless base image suite, if you're familiar with those... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Yes. |
**Dan Lorenc:** Yeah, so they're way closer to from-scratch. They have just a couple of other files you might need, even if you have a static Go application. Things like CA certificates, timezone data... A whole bunch of small text files that your application might need or expect to be in certain places. And those are ... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Interesting. |
**Dan Lorenc:** ...and they have a bunch of other cool properties, like they're reproducible, so we have a whole bunch of different build systems reproducing those builds and publishing, and kind of proofs that they reproduced them... So you can look all of that up in our transparency log, and verify it all the way bac... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** As far as I know, distroless is a concept that comes from Google... And I'm wondering, is that something that you're involved with, distroless? |
**Dan Lorenc:** Yeah, so I started that project with one of my co-workers, Matt Moore, years and years and years ago. We kind of did it as a proof of concept, to show what some of this stuff looked like. We were playing around with the Bazel toolset at that time, and we got reproducible container builds working, and it... |
Then a couple of years later, like it happens in open source, the Kubernetes release engineering team, so Stephen Augustus and his crew, moved all of the Kubernetes-based images from Debian, or something like that, to distroless, without even really telling us. So all of a sudden, overnight, this became a piece of crit... |
**Gerhard Lazu:** Wow. I'm connecting some very important dots right now... We don't have the time to go into this. You have no idea how relevant this is to many of the topics and threads that I have in the background. I intend to come back to this in a few months; maybe a few weeks, but I'm thinking months. |
**Dan Lorenc:** Perfect. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** But I'd like to talk about the big news right now... |
**Dan Lorenc:** Sure. |
**Gerhard Lazu:** ...and that is the Chainguard About page. |
**Dan Lorenc:** \[laughs\] |
**Gerhard Lazu:** That's one of my favorite About pages... Can you tell us the story about that? First of all, let me explain how it works, because I love that. So if you go to Chainguard.dev/about, and you click on the faces of the different people that are part of Chainguard, something amazing happens... And I'll let... |
**Dan Lorenc:** Sure. My version of the story is that we announced Chainguard, our new company, a couple of weeks ago. Scott Nichols, one of our co-founders, was working very hard on that website to get it set up. I can't do any kind of design at all; I'm terrible at frontend stuff, and everything like that, so I hadn'... |
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