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[4892.74 --> 4895.36] And programming languages are the best way to encapsulate that knowledge. |
[4895.78 --> 4898.90] So this is really interesting from multiple perspectives. |
[4898.90 --> 4906.90] I see a couple of products, tools, however you want to call them, enter this space in recent months. |
[4907.12 --> 4912.08] One which is top of my mind, which is, by the way, an episode that's going to ship, I think, this week. |
[4912.38 --> 4915.68] I mean, by the time we're listening, it'll be like a few weeks back, Dagger. |
[4916.10 --> 4919.40] And I really like how they're making use of Q and BuildKit. |
[4919.94 --> 4925.02] So Q as a language to define these things sounds really interesting. |
[4925.02 --> 4929.74] So I'm wondering how does Q compare to HCL and Pulumi? |
[4930.02 --> 4945.58] Pulumi in the case of Pulumi being like the actual programming language versus something like Crossplane, which is supposed to be your control cluster, which then you define your compositions and your, there's something else we call them, I forget, compositions. |
[4945.82 --> 4946.68] And it's not an abstraction. |
[4947.06 --> 4947.90] Do you remember what it is? |
[4948.08 --> 4949.52] There's a composition in Crossplane. |
[4949.52 --> 4950.70] Yeah, the XRDs. |
[4950.94 --> 4955.80] So you can actually have a single resource that then creates multiple subresources below it. |
[4955.90 --> 4958.86] So yes, I think they do call them compositions or XRDs. |
[4959.28 --> 4959.54] Yeah. |
[4960.08 --> 4961.02] And there's like another name. |
[4961.08 --> 4964.16] So there's just like two things, like the compositions are like the things that you combine them in. |
[4964.32 --> 4966.76] But they have these providers, they interact with all the IASs. |
[4967.14 --> 4968.38] You can declare your YAML. |
[4968.50 --> 4976.08] So you declare your GK cluster right in Google and just like makes it happen and all the other things that you want within that IAS. |
[4976.08 --> 4978.10] And it works across IASs. |
[4978.24 --> 4981.84] So I'm wondering, how does Pulumi compare to Crossplane? |
[4982.18 --> 4983.02] Let's start with that. |
[4983.46 --> 4989.66] And how does Pulumi compare with Dagger, which is using Q rather than a programming language? |
[4990.08 --> 4993.52] And Q, I mean, it is kind of programming language, but it's more like a data language. |
[4993.60 --> 4994.42] That's the way I see it. |
[4994.44 --> 4997.82] And I know that you know a bit more about Q with Brian Kettleson. |
[4998.20 --> 5000.08] You have blocks, Q blocks. |
[5000.32 --> 5003.34] Yeah, Brian Kettleson and I are the creators and maintainers of Q blocks. |
[5003.34 --> 5005.88] So we're both huge fans of Q. |
[5006.00 --> 5014.72] We think it's just a great language for defining schema, applying constraints, and even doing some basic comprehensions and, you know, mathematics within. |
[5014.90 --> 5020.96] So it's not touring complete programming language, but they are starting to add more query APIs and other things to bring it in line with some of that. |
[5021.34 --> 5022.34] So I really like Dagger. |
[5022.58 --> 5027.20] I have done an episode with Solomon on Rockwood Live where we dug into Dagger and we did some deployments. |
[5027.26 --> 5028.34] And I think it's a really good tool. |
[5028.46 --> 5030.26] I love seeing Q used in this way. |
[5030.26 --> 5041.26] It's very similar to Terraform in the regards of that you have to have something that understands the abstract form, the HCL, the YAML, or even the Q, which is just compiling down to YAML at the end of the day anyway. |
[5041.76 --> 5045.72] So you're still constrained in that you can't do a lot of conditional logic. |
[5046.14 --> 5049.04] Loop logic does exist in Q and you can do some things like that. |
[5049.04 --> 5054.12] But then modifying things within the loop gets a little bit difficult because you've only got access to the Array account and things like that. |
[5054.30 --> 5056.48] So, you know, it depends on your use case. |
[5056.58 --> 5061.80] But I think Dagger is great in that they're moving beyond into, like, where Boundary is as well. |
[5061.90 --> 5066.06] I'm not sure if you're familiar with HashiCorp's Boundary, but it's like that second step. |
[5066.18 --> 5071.94] It's like, okay, we provide the platform or the infrastructure, but what about the applications that then belong and live on that application? |
[5071.94 --> 5076.76] And that's where Boundary comes in, fulfilling the continuous delivery component of your application. |
[5077.14 --> 5082.42] And Dagger can move right into that and provides, like, a single interface to all of it, which I think is really, really cool. |
[5082.80 --> 5084.96] But the constraints are still there, very similar to HCL. |
[5085.42 --> 5086.90] Crossplane things get really interesting. |
[5087.30 --> 5090.04] Crossplane still has defined, you're still constrained by YAML. |
[5090.18 --> 5093.12] Like, you can only say so much that's not programming. |
[5093.30 --> 5098.12] So you're not going to be able to provide a function that does a thing, but you can provide a composite resource that does a thing. |
[5098.12 --> 5102.04] What I really love about Crossplane is that continuous reconciliation. |
[5102.38 --> 5105.16] This is something that Pulumi doesn't do yet. |
[5105.38 --> 5106.84] That's one of the first things I want to change. |
[5106.94 --> 5109.74] Like, I'm going to be into Pulumi and I'm going to be like, we need to get into this space. |
[5109.88 --> 5114.00] We have to control the actual reconciliation and not just the client-side reconciliation. |
[5114.32 --> 5116.16] So I think Crossplane is killing it there. |
[5116.28 --> 5119.54] I don't think any other product is as good as Crossplane in that regard. |
[5119.68 --> 5125.24] The fact that I can have that controller running in my Kubernetes cluster, if I delete an S3 bucket, it's going to be recreated. |
[5125.52 --> 5127.84] Now, of course, there are things that can happen there that are bad. |
[5127.84 --> 5132.06] It could be data in that S3 bucket and you may have to build workflows onto it to restore from a backup. |
[5132.28 --> 5134.02] These are not things that really happened yet. |
[5134.56 --> 5136.92] Crossplane is going to slide around to that, and I know they are because they're a great team. |
[5137.18 --> 5137.92] Crossplane is great. |
[5138.42 --> 5140.78] Got a reconciliation look, Kubernetes event model. |
[5141.04 --> 5142.84] Going to be a lot familiar to people. |
[5143.30 --> 5144.82] They're going to be really happy with that approach. |
[5145.18 --> 5150.46] I want to see Pulumi do more of that, control the execution of Pulumi and not just have it client-side. |
[5150.76 --> 5151.74] And Dagger is great. |
[5151.92 --> 5153.66] Solomon and the team are fantastic. |
[5153.66 --> 5157.78] But you're still, it's not a programming language, but you can still do some really cool things with Q. |
[5157.78 --> 5167.44] I think where Dagger is really going to excel is that something that's difficult to do with Terraform and even difficult to do with Crossplane is that you have to have the provider first. |
[5167.94 --> 5173.76] Dagger has made it really easy to provide really superficial providers by just taking the Q and saying, this is what I need to do with this code. |
[5173.98 --> 5175.54] It's a very small amount of goal. |
[5175.84 --> 5176.84] There's not a lot of boilerplate. |
[5177.04 --> 5179.50] And I think we'll see a lot of adoption because of that. |
[5179.50 --> 5185.64] But hopefully Pulumi is in a well-positioned place to try and help on both of those fronts as well. |
[5185.88 --> 5197.64] The other tool that I've seen take a similar approach is CDK from Amazon, where you get to declare your infrastructure using a higher level language. |
[5198.00 --> 5203.48] TypeScript, I know that's something which is pushed at Amazon, which makes sense with CDK. |
[5203.68 --> 5204.74] I've used it briefly. |
[5205.20 --> 5205.90] It was okay. |
[5206.10 --> 5208.54] Way better than using the YAML alternative. |
[5208.54 --> 5213.34] That was like the most horrible YAML I've seen in my life, where you get to do like ink, which is the function. |
[5213.48 --> 5216.06] You get two arguments, which are defined like in an array. |
[5216.24 --> 5220.90] And then you get an operation, which, you know, you capture the result and then you reuse that result as a variable. |
[5221.02 --> 5221.66] That was horrible. |
[5221.76 --> 5222.74] And all defined in YAML. |
[5222.94 --> 5223.90] That was crazy. |
[5224.22 --> 5225.56] That was the craziest YAML I've seen. |
[5226.14 --> 5228.78] So CDK was better in that respect. |
[5228.84 --> 5230.36] So I can see some similarities there. |
[5230.54 --> 5232.84] It's interesting that you run it client-side. |
[5233.14 --> 5237.64] And when you say client-side, I imagine the CI could run it as well if it has all the secrets. |
[5237.64 --> 5240.92] But still, it's not built into the product. |
[5241.58 --> 5242.40] So that's interesting. |
[5242.66 --> 5243.74] Maybe there is a Pulumi cloud. |
[5243.92 --> 5244.28] I don't know. |
[5244.32 --> 5244.64] I haven't. |
[5244.72 --> 5247.32] I don't know enough about Pulumi is what I'm getting at. |
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