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[1376.84 --> 1380.64] Somebody's going to be like, well, we can take the JVM and run with it still. |
[1380.86 --> 1381.54] Open JDK. |
[1381.78 --> 1383.26] It's been a while since I've been to Java land. |
[1383.26 --> 1387.12] So I'm not sure how successful OpenJDK has been, but that is a possibility, right? |
[1387.30 --> 1392.74] When you've got open-source, closed-source, you might be forced into complete rewrites. |
[1393.40 --> 1408.14] So do we feel like that's one of the kind of differentiators of Go in that, you know, we have this vibrant, wonderful community where if there's anything that is detrimental is causing people to feel that it's legacy in some way in terms of the tools provided, |
[1408.38 --> 1412.98] that there's going to be mass opera in the community be like, hey, can we fix this, please? |
[1413.26 --> 1414.72] It definitely can help. |
[1415.14 --> 1419.80] Up until the point that there's enough bifurcation that there's a fork, which hopefully won't happen. |
[1420.02 --> 1423.62] And it's rare to see languages truly fork like that. |
[1423.80 --> 1427.50] So I think largely, yes, but that forking is also a potential danger. |
[1427.84 --> 1429.12] Languages except for JavaScript. |
[1431.02 --> 1431.92] Oh, God. |
[1432.06 --> 1432.40] JavaScript. |
[1432.74 --> 1432.96] Yay! |
[1432.96 --> 1433.14] Yay! |
[1433.14 --> 1433.16] Yay! |
[1433.16 --> 1433.26] Yay! |
[1433.26 --> 1433.96] Yay! |
[1433.96 --> 1444.98] This episode is brought to you by our friends at Square. |
[1445.28 --> 1452.00] Millions of Square sellers use the Square app marketplace to discover and install apps they rely on daily to run their businesses. |
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[1457.00 --> 1458.12] Let me tell you how this works. |
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[1475.50 --> 1476.56] And here's the best part. |
[1476.88 --> 1480.40] You get to keep 100% of revenue while you grow. |
[1480.40 --> 1486.62] Square collects a 0% cut from your sales for the first year or your first 100 Square referred sellers. |
[1487.04 --> 1490.70] That way you can focus on building and growing your Square customer base, |
[1490.84 --> 1493.02] and you get to set your own pricing models. |
[1493.56 --> 1495.40] You also get a ton of support from Square. |
[1495.76 --> 1498.06] You get access to Square's technical team using Slack. |
[1498.32 --> 1501.92] You get insights into the performance of your app on the app marketplace. |
[1502.50 --> 1505.16] And of course, you get direct access to new product launches. |
[1505.74 --> 1509.36] And all this begins at changelog.com slash Square. |
[1509.36 --> 1512.22] Again, changelog.com slash Square. |
[1512.22 --> 1529.34] So you talked about kind of the pains of maintaining and the need to, |
[1529.76 --> 1532.94] as you kind of touched upon Dominic, kind of hacking these small solutions |
[1532.94 --> 1535.82] to make sure your apps continue running. |
[1535.82 --> 1541.40] But at what point do you kind of throw your hands up and say, |
[1541.64 --> 1543.44] no, we need to completely rewrite this? |
[1543.80 --> 1546.32] Like this needs to have, well, one, |
[1546.90 --> 1549.44] reliant upon having the time and investment to do that, |
[1549.48 --> 1550.60] but we'll touch on that later. |
[1551.20 --> 1555.60] But if you feel like there is the time and investment to do a rewrite, |
[1555.74 --> 1560.68] at what point do you go from maintaining to really advocating for, |
[1560.84 --> 1563.58] we need to, you know, rip this out and plant a completely new tree? |
[1563.58 --> 1568.24] One nice thing about legacy software is that at some point, |
[1568.34 --> 1572.82] they kind of run without any intervention from any developers. |
[1573.18 --> 1577.28] So that is something that could help with a complete rewrite. |
[1577.50 --> 1581.44] If the company is able to do that and sees the value in doing that, |
[1581.96 --> 1584.30] then yes, I think at some point the maintenance, |
[1585.04 --> 1589.26] because after 20 years, you're not really maintaining any code base. |
[1589.40 --> 1591.54] You know, you're not changing lots of code base. |
[1591.54 --> 1595.16] It's everything around the software that is failing. |
[1595.62 --> 1596.70] So it's not the code. |
[1596.76 --> 1597.88] The code is battle tested. |
[1598.02 --> 1599.60] So even though there's no unit test, |
[1599.92 --> 1603.54] I trust those old software completely. |
[1604.10 --> 1605.86] You know, they have been fixed. |
[1606.10 --> 1608.70] There is not really any bugs anymore. |
[1609.20 --> 1610.20] They are pretty stable, |
[1610.20 --> 1614.28] but it's a huge investment to decide to rewrite the software, |
[1614.78 --> 1617.44] especially old application like that. |
[1617.86 --> 1621.72] So yes, I don't really know how to answer that, |
[1621.88 --> 1625.96] but maybe someone else has another point. |
[1625.96 --> 1631.36] I don't know that there is like a hard and fast rule for when to do a green or a greenfield rewrite, |
[1631.36 --> 1635.24] other than it should probably be like one of your last resorts, |
[1635.24 --> 1638.24] because it is an incredibly expensive thing to do. |
[1638.76 --> 1640.92] Oftentimes you have to do it bug for bug, |
[1641.02 --> 1642.80] depending on your downstream clients. |
[1642.80 --> 1645.18] And that can be a nightmare to do. |
[1645.18 --> 1649.34] So, and you know, different scenarios can offer different reasons. |
[1649.54 --> 1651.50] Like, you know, if you're doing a cloud migration, |
[1651.72 --> 1658.12] well, there may very well be a reason to do a greenfield rewrite of fairly recent stuff in that case, |
[1658.12 --> 1660.98] because your underlying platform is changing dramatically. |
[1661.18 --> 1662.90] Based on the projects I've seen, |
[1663.08 --> 1668.34] there definitely needs to be a close alignment between business and product, |
[1668.34 --> 1673.32] as it were, business requirements and sort of the tech requirements |
[1673.32 --> 1676.00] and what needs to be done on the tech side, |
[1676.08 --> 1679.66] because that's when you start seeing possible solutions like, |
[1679.80 --> 1682.70] oh, well, maybe I don't need to rewrite the whole thing, right? |
[1682.78 --> 1686.70] Maybe I need to rewrite just parts of my legacy code, |
[1686.70 --> 1694.26] and those will work as standalone pieces while the legacy thing continues to kind of chug away in the background. |
[1695.12 --> 1697.02] And also, of course, the expense part, |
[1697.02 --> 1702.50] that needs to be kind of understood and underwritten by your business, |
[1702.50 --> 1707.02] if that is to happen, if any kind of rewrite is to happen. |
[1707.48 --> 1710.02] I'm kind of curious as to whether, |
[1710.30 --> 1714.14] when it is important to be, for business and product to be aligned, |
[1714.24 --> 1719.24] but also taking into account kind of the engineering quality of life. |
[1719.42 --> 1723.84] Like, if your engineers are feeling like I'm spending all my time, |
[1723.84 --> 1727.38] like Dominic said, I'm not like fixing the code itself. |
[1727.38 --> 1730.92] I'm trying to keep the code standing and keep it running, |
[1731.38 --> 1733.12] because everything around it is just crumbling. |
[1733.80 --> 1739.78] Speaking for myself, I don't feel like I would last very long if that's all I was doing at a company. |
[1740.32 --> 1741.48] Like, yes, I can. |
[1741.48 --> 1746.82] I'm willing to support legacy systems, but I don't want, that's not all I want to be doing. |
[1746.96 --> 1749.86] I want to be at least adding, like creating something new, |
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