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[2048.42 --> 2052.90] But also just like, I think a lot of it has to do with process and project management of like, |
[2052.90 --> 2057.46] okay, like when we said that we could like, when we said that we could deliver this feature, |
[2057.52 --> 2061.30] we said it would come with this amount of debt, this amount of stuff that we have to do later. |
[2061.56 --> 2062.88] Well, here's the later part. |
[2063.04 --> 2064.48] And we have to go do that. |
[2064.50 --> 2065.70] And you said that we could do it. |
[2065.78 --> 2070.14] So you're going to have to actually stick to what you said you were going to do and give us |
[2070.14 --> 2070.86] the time to do this. |
[2070.90 --> 2073.18] I think it does take a lot of fighting and advocating. |
[2073.18 --> 2077.86] But I think part of the problem is that in general, the teams I've been on have been |
[2077.86 --> 2082.48] kind of not great at explaining exactly what that technical debt is. |
[2082.54 --> 2086.04] It's like we took on some technical debt, but it's just kind of this mysterious thing, |
[2086.08 --> 2086.18] right? |
[2086.38 --> 2087.88] It's like, oh, you got to go write some tests. |
[2087.92 --> 2089.36] You got to go do some other stuff. |
[2089.80 --> 2093.96] So I think it's less that product and business don't want to pay for it. |
[2094.02 --> 2098.44] But the cost of it is kind of like not known, not quantifiable. |
[2098.44 --> 2102.52] It's like if we talked in debt, but you never knew or never found out what the interest rates |
[2102.52 --> 2102.80] are. |
[2102.96 --> 2105.60] And it's like, OK, well, you're telling me you have to pay down this debt. |
[2105.72 --> 2110.56] But is this debt that's at a 0.5% interest rate or at a 25% interest rate? |
[2110.66 --> 2113.78] Because we're going to deal with that in very, very different ways. |
[2113.88 --> 2118.10] Like 25% interest rate, we got to pay that down immediately, stop everything else, get |
[2118.10 --> 2119.64] rid of that 0.5% interest rate. |
[2119.66 --> 2122.38] I'm just going to let that sit there because it's not going to cost me much in the long |
[2122.38 --> 2122.62] run. |
[2122.68 --> 2126.94] And not being able to talk about things in that kind of quantifiable level, I think is what |
[2126.94 --> 2131.18] holds back a lot of engineering organizations from being able to pay down that technical debt |
[2131.18 --> 2132.30] and handle that legacy. |
[2132.52 --> 2137.30] So I think, at least in my experience, the closer that I've gotten to talking in terms |
[2137.30 --> 2139.70] that are more concrete of like, here's what we need to do. |
[2139.80 --> 2140.78] Here's the technical project. |
[2140.88 --> 2141.68] Here's the plan for it. |
[2141.74 --> 2142.94] Here's how much time it's going to take. |
[2143.20 --> 2145.58] And here are the benefits that we're going to get out of it at the other end. |
[2145.66 --> 2147.84] I've been very successful in selling that. |
[2147.98 --> 2153.28] It's definitely the other side of it when it's more just like you can't get a good grasp |
[2153.28 --> 2157.46] on it when it's not quantifiable in the terms of the business or in the product team. |
[2157.46 --> 2160.76] And quantifying it can be interesting, too, because there are some things that can be |
[2160.76 --> 2163.32] like, yeah, this is a huge thing that's going to bite us hard. |
[2163.52 --> 2168.78] But when you're trying to quantify exact terms for like, this may or may not be a problem |
[2168.78 --> 2173.80] depending on what we do, which oftentimes maybe the answer in that is, if it's not a |
[2173.80 --> 2175.24] problem, don't worry about it. |
[2175.46 --> 2177.18] I guess quantifying that debt is hard. |
[2177.18 --> 2182.42] Would it be fair to say that that is exactly the difference between legacy code and technical |
[2182.42 --> 2187.02] debt, where technical debt is something that needs to be repaid and that will potentially |
[2187.02 --> 2193.38] grow with time, whereas legacy code, as Dominic said, it might just sit there and work for |
[2193.38 --> 2195.02] years until anyone notices. |
[2195.52 --> 2200.22] I feel like legacy code is like the technical debt that we haven't paid down for so long |
[2200.22 --> 2202.24] that we kind of declare bankruptcy on it. |
[2202.44 --> 2205.72] Like, and the way that people think about legacy code, it's like that code that's just like, |
[2205.72 --> 2210.02] whenever you make that declaration of a greenfield, you're like, okay, we're done with this. |
[2210.14 --> 2213.22] And since we haven't planned well for our debt in the first place, we haven't planned well |
[2213.22 --> 2217.38] for how we're going to replace that debt, because we also haven't quantified it for ourselves. |
[2217.90 --> 2224.04] So I think it starts off as we want to declare bankruptcy, but we don't actually know how to |
[2224.04 --> 2224.36] do that. |
[2224.42 --> 2229.06] And so we have this thing that kind of sits there and lives on continuously, but definitely |
[2229.06 --> 2231.34] open to other people's interpretations of that as well. |
[2231.34 --> 2239.86] To me, it boils down to once the company is near reaching a point where it will affect |
[2239.86 --> 2240.74] their bottom line. |
[2241.08 --> 2247.62] And when you're not able to find any engineers to work at your company, this is terrible. |
[2247.86 --> 2253.22] I mean, this is, you've already reached a certain point that you should never have passed, |
[2253.32 --> 2253.86] in my opinion. |
[2253.86 --> 2261.70] But before, yeah, before going there, the other point from just a minute ago, I think |
[2261.70 --> 2266.62] we might see a new kind of engineering type evolving. |
[2266.62 --> 2272.64] Because if you think about it, how many software are we creating these days compared to 25 years, |
[2272.76 --> 2273.52] 30 years ago? |
[2273.68 --> 2274.58] It's incredible. |
[2274.90 --> 2281.30] There will not be enough of us to maintain every single piece of software that is creating |
[2281.30 --> 2281.76] at the moment. |
[2281.76 --> 2285.62] I think we will see new kind of job evolved. |
[2286.22 --> 2287.92] And I'm not talking about AI here. |
[2288.04 --> 2289.96] And AI cannot maintain software. |
[2290.38 --> 2292.68] I'm looking at you, GitHub Copilot. |
[2292.88 --> 2300.00] But yeah, my point is, I mean, there should probably not be a difficult argument to be said |
[2300.00 --> 2305.14] about if a piece of software should be left as legacy like that, because it will impact |
[2305.14 --> 2307.20] the bottom line of the company at some point. |
[2307.28 --> 2311.14] And that should be the metric that every business people should understand. |
[2311.14 --> 2315.38] I think there was also a question about how we might start quantifying what this debt |
[2315.38 --> 2316.90] looks like for the business. |
[2317.00 --> 2319.28] And I think kind of using their own terms would be helpful here. |
[2319.42 --> 2323.46] Like businesses tend to have really good, or at least the ones that survive for a long |
[2323.46 --> 2326.48] time, tend to have really good risk management apparatuses. |
[2326.48 --> 2329.74] So they have really good ways of talking about things probabilistically. |
[2329.74 --> 2335.10] And we as engineers hate talking about things in probabilistic terms or statistic terms, right? |
[2335.14 --> 2338.12] We're like, that will absolutely happen or that will never happen. |
[2338.18 --> 2339.68] And like, those are the only two options. |
[2339.90 --> 2344.20] But I've also found some success in like talking about things in a more probabilistic way. |
[2344.34 --> 2349.62] This can go as far as down as like story pointing, kind of changing it to be like, I have 70% |
[2349.62 --> 2351.54] confidence that this will take this amount of time. |
[2351.54 --> 2353.70] And just kind of bubbling that all the way up. |
[2353.80 --> 2358.48] And once we start talking in less of these absolute terms, I think it becomes easier for |
[2358.48 --> 2362.34] business people to commit for us to communicate with business people and give them something |
[2362.34 --> 2362.98] quantifiable. |
[2362.98 --> 2367.98] It's like, okay, well, if we don't do this work, there's an 80% chance we're going to |
[2367.98 --> 2371.48] run into a problem versus like, if we don't do this work, there's a 20% chance we're going |
[2371.48 --> 2372.32] to run into this problem. |
[2372.48 --> 2375.08] And then we can start doing those types of trade-offs. |
[2375.12 --> 2380.04] And then importantly, that also gives us something to track so we can improve there as well. |
[2380.04 --> 2383.82] Because once again, if we're trying to like figure out what our interest rates are, figure |
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