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[1750.22 --> 1751.64] or at least extending it or something. |
[1752.16 --> 1755.48] I don't want to just be maintaining forever. |
[1755.94 --> 1761.22] And I feel like I won't grow as an engineer if that's all I'm allowed to do. |
[1761.22 --> 1765.02] Yeah, I can totally relate with what you're saying. |
[1765.54 --> 1767.16] Yeah, if you're an engineer, I suppose, sorry. |
[1767.80 --> 1769.82] I'm alone at the company at the moment. |
[1769.94 --> 1772.94] So they are simply not able to hire anyone else. |
[1773.16 --> 1774.62] So I'm kind of stuck there. |
[1774.88 --> 1778.44] I do think there are some engineers who actually do like kind of just |
[1778.44 --> 1782.34] tinkering on old code bases and not adding new features or anything, |
[1782.44 --> 1784.66] but just like keeping something running. |
[1784.78 --> 1789.50] I think there are people that just like get an immense amount of joy out of just doing that. |
[1789.50 --> 1792.96] But I definitely think like trying to put engineers that don't want to do that sort of thing |
[1792.96 --> 1795.58] onto a code base that is, that's all of the work. |
[1795.68 --> 1798.20] It's not going to work out very well for anybody involved. |
[1798.60 --> 1804.10] And do you feel like that is more in keeping with just like personal preference? |
[1804.10 --> 1808.86] Or is that perhaps to do with like where you are in your progression as a software engineer? |
[1809.32 --> 1812.58] I mean, purposefully, we have kind of a range of different levels on this call |
[1812.58 --> 1817.68] because I wanted to really get an understanding of what is it like coming in like at Jeff's level |
[1817.68 --> 1823.56] and, you know, very early looking to learn, looking to grow at a very rapid pace versus someone |
[1823.56 --> 1826.48] like Chris, John, et cetera, who are at that. |
[1826.96 --> 1828.06] I don't want to say end phases. |
[1828.20 --> 1829.68] You have many more years in you. |
[1830.54 --> 1831.62] But you see what I'm saying? |
[1831.70 --> 1836.42] Like you've worked on enough problems to have learned a massive amount and perhaps to find |
[1836.42 --> 1838.74] a new problem for you to solve is more difficult. |
[1839.12 --> 1840.82] Or do you think it's just personality? |
[1840.96 --> 1841.50] Go on, Chris. |
[1841.50 --> 1845.40] I think it's a different type of engineering rather than a certain level of it, right? |
[1845.40 --> 1849.20] I think it's like there are people that want to be maintenance engineers in the same way |
[1849.20 --> 1853.94] there are people that want to just be like pure R&D, pure prototype engineers. |
[1854.04 --> 1854.94] Like they want to build stuff. |
[1855.10 --> 1858.48] They never want any of that to be in production because they know that it's like not going |
[1858.48 --> 1859.08] to survive production. |
[1859.18 --> 1860.92] And they know that they don't want to have to maintain it. |
[1860.96 --> 1862.54] They're like, I'm just doing research. |
[1862.62 --> 1864.06] I'm just proving out an idea. |
[1864.54 --> 1865.50] That's what I like doing. |
[1865.62 --> 1870.40] And I think there's leveling within those types of engineering, but I don't think they kind |
[1870.40 --> 1872.16] of like stack on top of each other or anything. |
[1872.16 --> 1875.30] I think there's like, okay, maybe you're on one far into the spectrum. |
[1875.46 --> 1879.20] You really like getting one of those old, nasty code bases. |
[1879.30 --> 1880.86] You're like, I'm just going to, I'm not going to add anything new. |
[1880.88 --> 1881.76] I'm just going to like fix it up. |
[1881.84 --> 1882.42] I'm going to add tests. |
[1882.50 --> 1883.30] I'm going to document things. |
[1883.34 --> 1886.46] I'm going to turn this into like a really nice code base to work within. |
[1886.72 --> 1889.36] And then there's, you know, the other end of the spectrum is those prototype people |
[1889.36 --> 1893.16] that are like, I just write code that I just clopper together and like make something |
[1893.16 --> 1893.64] work. |
[1893.82 --> 1896.36] But like, there's no way this will work for the long term. |
[1896.66 --> 1899.42] And I think, you know, the majority of engineers fall in the middle. |
[1899.42 --> 1900.78] Like they like doing some new stuff. |
[1900.84 --> 1902.26] They like maintaining some old stuff. |
[1902.52 --> 1903.62] And that's just kind of what it is. |
[1903.64 --> 1907.22] And I think it's important that we start seeing that as a spectrum instead of trying to see |
[1907.22 --> 1909.60] that as like, well, who's better than the other? |
[1909.68 --> 1910.72] It's like, there's no better. |
[1910.88 --> 1913.06] There's just like, we need a bit of all of them. |
[1913.12 --> 1914.82] You need to keep your organization balanced. |
[1914.82 --> 1918.32] And I think that's one of the criticisms I have for a lot of tech companies right now is |
[1918.32 --> 1923.18] that they are very much focused on that, the other end of that spectrum that is the |
[1923.18 --> 1926.00] R&D engineers and the people that want to build newer things. |
[1926.16 --> 1930.06] And the results of that is a lot of code bases that don't wind up getting properly maintained |
[1930.06 --> 1933.58] because there's no one in the company that wants to do that maintenance. |
[1933.78 --> 1936.98] So there's no one in the company that's advocating for it, even though everybody in |
[1936.98 --> 1938.62] the company is aware that it needs to happen. |
[1938.72 --> 1939.56] And I think that happens. |
[1939.62 --> 1943.36] A lot of teams sitting there are being like, well, we really want to work on all of this old |
[1943.36 --> 1945.96] legacy stuff, but where's the time to do it? |
[1946.04 --> 1947.44] Where and how are we going to make this happen? |
[1948.04 --> 1949.48] So I think like getting some of that balance is good. |
[1949.54 --> 1952.52] But to answer your original question, yes, I think they are different types of engineering, |
[1952.72 --> 1955.92] not different amounts of time that you've been doing software engineering. |
[1956.42 --> 1956.92] Yeah, for sure. |
[1957.42 --> 1963.70] And kind of off the back of that, like people know that a certain platform, a certain part |
[1963.70 --> 1966.08] of their technology, their stack is legacy. |
[1966.28 --> 1968.50] And it's all kind of, it's known about like you're slacking about it. |
[1968.52 --> 1969.74] Oh, this annoying platform. |
[1969.92 --> 1971.86] Oh, this annoying, like it's all known. |
[1971.86 --> 1978.40] How do you then advocate for a rewrite or for the time to maintain? |
[1978.58 --> 1984.06] Like what are from your experiences, the key things that you have to kind of bring up |
[1984.06 --> 1989.16] to get buy in from kind of product business, et cetera, to actually give you that time? |
[1989.22 --> 1992.22] Because that is, I know, a challenge that many people face. |
[1992.30 --> 1993.74] So how do you, how do you overcome that? |
[1993.78 --> 1994.60] How do you make them care? |
[1995.08 --> 2000.48] That's a hard problem because it's effectively like that maintenance is a cost center with |
[2000.48 --> 2003.58] no, like you don't see the benefits immediately. |
[2003.58 --> 2008.82] And generally my experience has been everyone is short-sighted and more concerned about getting |
[2008.82 --> 2013.78] their current feature out than they are about the ability to add another feature six months |
[2013.78 --> 2014.58] down the line. |
[2015.06 --> 2019.80] And I think the best argument that I've had is like working with business and explaining, |
[2019.96 --> 2025.16] you know, that this tech debt is something that actually has a cost down the line and will |
[2025.16 --> 2027.44] impede future things. |
[2027.44 --> 2031.10] And most people understand the idea of debt, you know, there's only so much you can have |
[2031.10 --> 2035.70] and explaining it as tech debt and being like, you know, we will get to the point where all |
[2035.70 --> 2040.30] we can do is pay our tech debt and we won't be able to make any new investments. |
[2040.80 --> 2042.50] And oftentimes that falls on deaf ears. |
[2042.76 --> 2048.00] So I definitely think structuring it as a conversation around debt and the financial aspect of it can |
[2048.00 --> 2048.42] help people. |
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