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• Soft Serve (Wish-based Git server), Wishlist (Wish-based SSH directory), Charm (Wish-based encryption and identity app) |
• Use cases for Wish apps in applications like Glow and Clidle (Wordle clone over SSH) |
• Growing adoption of Wish apps, including success stories with Bubble Tea apps like Slides and official clients |
• Discussion of Bubble Tea and its applications |
• Mergestat and QueryGit examples of using Bubble Tea |
• Inspiration for creating SSH-based apps with Bubble Tea |
• Wish, Charm, and Soft Serve projects explained |
• Potential use cases for Bubble Tea in building interactive CLI tools |
• Git-based interaction and collaboration possibilities |
• Exploring the idea of using Git as a pseudo-database |
• The concept of Soft Serve and Wish as alternative Git hosts |
• Using Git as a configuration management tool for applications |
• Leveraging Git to manage dotfiles across multiple machines and platforms |
• Discussing the potential for commercial offerings, including self-hosted and managed options |
• Introducing the SkunkWorks project "Donut" (formerly known as Cupcake) |
• The benefits of open-source software and the creation of commercially viable parts |
• Simplified configuration for self-hosted Charm environments |
• Designing software with interfaces to accommodate different backend systems (e.g., SQLite vs. Postgres) |
• Redirecting "haters" to /dev/null on the project's website |
**Jerod Santo:** So we have Toby Padilla here from Charm. Toby, thanks so much for joining us on the show. |
**Toby Padilla:** Thank you for having me. |
**Jerod Santo:** Charm - y'all build tools to make the command line glamorous. I landed on your website and I thought "I am the target audience for these folks." Really cool stuff. |
**Toby Padilla:** Thanks. Yeah, we like to be glamorous. |
**Jerod Santo:** How many people are in this Charm group? Because I just reached out to all y'all and said "Hey, come on the show", and I think there was a handful of people that responded. There was some talk on your side, "Who should actually be the representative?" and it ended up being yourself. But who else is inv... |
**Toby Padilla:** There's six of us. There's myself, there's the other co-founder, Christian Rocha. There's Muesli, who's been with us since almost the very beginning. There's Carlos Becker, who's the GoReleaser guy. There's Ayman Bagabas. He does a lot of the Soft Serve development and a lot of our DevOps stuff... And... |
**Jerod Santo:** Shout-out to Pengu. So I know Carlos Becker... He was on Go Time last year. |
**Toby Padilla:** Yup. |
**Jerod Santo:** And ever since then, him and I have been working together to get him a Go Time T-shirt shipped to his location, because -- |
**Toby Padilla:** He mentioned today that he hasn't got his T-shirt yet, so yeah... \[laughs\] |
**Jerod Santo:** \[04:11\] No... But we've tried over and over again. I think he's in Brazil, or somewhere... |
**Toby Padilla:** He is. |
**Jerod Santo:** ...and you know, shipping things is hard these days. We've just actually decided to start from scratch, hopefully try a second time... It just got stuck somewhere in customers... Who knows. Who knows what happened. But yeah, Carlos and I have been talking for a while, ever since his Go Time appearance. |
**Toby Padilla:** Carlos is a good guy, we're excited to have him on. He actually started as a contributor, and a person who is just kind of around the Charm project, and then we brought him on as a contractor. Around four months ago I believe he came on full-time. |
**Jerod Santo:** So y'all have a bunch of tools... It's kind of hard to decide where to start and which one to go into... And that was one of the things - when I first landed on your site, I thought "Oh, here's an easy Changelog News link-up. And then I started scrolling and I'm like "Holy cow, there's a whole bunch of... |
But one thing I've already keyed in on... I'm sure Adam's keyed on it, because he's all about the Founders Talk... You said "my co-founder", and I'm looking at a whole bunch of open source tools, and I'm just very curious, how do you guys approach Charm? You said there is an incorporation. So tell us about, I guess, wh... |
**Toby Padilla:** So we are actually a seed-funded startup, and we started because we wanted to make the command line more fun; we wanted to make it glamorous. And that sounds insane, but it's something that we wanted to do. But it actually means a few things to us. Christian and I - we're at BetaWorks together, and li... |
So what we wanted to do was a) make it more fun to work on the command line, b) bring modern product thinking to the command line. If you look at the history of the command line, it was very much rooted in 1970's and '80s mainframe technology. It's designed around multiple users per machine; it's not really set up for ... |
So we built a bunch of stuff. You were referencing -- there's a lot of projects, right? And it sometimes can be hard to talk about everything, but we kind of have two separate areas that we focus on. One is apps, and one is libraries. And the apps are focused on solving things that we see are big problems on the comman... |
An example of a library is Bubble Tea. We built Bubble Tea to build Glow, and now it powers all of our apps, but it also powers hundreds of apps that people in the open source community have built. And Bubble Tea is a TUI framework based on the Elm architecture. Christian was a big Haskell guy, loves functional program... |
\[08:12\] We've got a bunch of other projects as well. The libraries are focused on really the front-end, so they're sort of -- Lip Gloss, Bubble Tea, Bubbles, Harmonica, are all frontend apps. They have interesting names, I know. But then we also have backend apps. So Charm is a bunch of things; it's not just the comp... |
We also have Git middleware inside of Wish. One of the things that inspired a lot of what we're doing is the Git SSH interface; kind of how GitHub does this. So you push, and they know who you are based on your public key; you add your public key to their server. So we built Soft Serve, which is a TUI-based self-serve ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Wow. Blown my mind here; it's just so many toolings... I love the direction. It's crazy just to see somebody come out swinging like this on the command line. You almost feel like it's boring, in a way, from the outsider's perspective, those who think like "Oh, the command line is just kind of a drag... |
**Toby Padilla:** Thank you. That is sort of a perception that's there, and it's partially true and it's partially not true; it's difficult... One of the reasons we've built this is because Christian and I have been on the command line each for like 20 years apiece, and neither of us considered ourselves experts... Bec... |
There's kind of -- on the command line you get these things that look like lifer technologies, where it's like you invest your life in learning this thing, and then it'll pay off in the long run. I spent a lot of time moving to Vim from TextMate, or something like that. And it was difficult at first, but I knew "Suffer... |
**Jerod Santo:** So I tend to agree with you, but I wonder how big the audience is for tooling like this. I think of the command line as a subset of technical people, or maybe developers... Let's just call them tech-oriented people; of those, there is a subset who prefers the command line. And of those, I am one, and m... |
**Toby Padilla:** We are, yes. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[12:16\] Okay. So when you're talking to venture capitalists and try to make a business case for this type of a company, don't you butt up against that feeling of it being old and very niche, and saying "Well, we're gonna bring it to the future." But is the future interested in the command line? I per... |
**Toby Padilla:** It can be like that... There are some good examples of doing what we're talking about doing. So GitHub is a great example of modernizing the command line. They took Git, which is an extremely powerful, and let's say edgy tool; it requires a lot of knowledge to do it right... And they brought a bunch o... |
So Git was designed for the Linux kernel and mailing and patches and all these things; really small audience to do that kind of stuff. But GitHub mainstreamed this, and almost every developer - not every developer, but lots and lots of developers are on GitHub because they kind of did what we wanna do. But then they ki... |
If you look at DevOps and things of this nature, the command line is really important there. SSH keys are really important there. The workflows for deployment are often in these developers tools that live, in a sense, on the command line. So there's maybe not a trillion people, but especially myself, coming from the co... |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, shout-out to your designer, because when you land on Charm.sh, you accomplished what many people fail at, which is to immediately have a recognizable and distinguished and interesting look and feel. You mentioned the somewhat -- you didn't call them silly, did you? You said you have lots of diffe... |
**Toby Padilla:** We like to be unique with our naming, yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay, so the unique naming convention... Tell us what inspired this. You've got Bubble Tea, Lip Gloss, you mentioned Harmonica, Soft Serve, there's like an ice-cream theme going on... Kind of like a desserty theme going on... Talk about that for a minute. |
**Toby Padilla:** So Christian is the co-founder and designer, so he's doing all of this design. 3D backgrounds... So you'll see a lot of 3D models there, which people don't necessarily put in the command line design sensibilities, right? From the get-go, we wanted our brand to be "My Little Pony meets Fist of the Nort... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[15:58\] Do you see, I guess, when you get to a certain point, when you SSH let's say into your production server, do you envision where this absent tooling that lives -- I'm not sure how you divide them, because I'm still learning the product graph you have... But do you envision -- because I'm lo... |
**Toby Padilla:** Exactly. That's what we're doing. I would say the best example of a Wish app is Soft Serve. So if you SSH to git.charm.sh, you will go into our Git repos. So this is a Soft Serve instance, anyone can access it if you have a public key. If you don't have a public key, it'll ask you for your password, a... |
SSH is really powerful, because you know who somebody is. Everything is, obviously, encrypted, so that's nice... If you think about setting up a server today on the web, you get HTTPS, and you have to manage those certificates. Maybe CertBot manages it for you, but you still have to set that up; you have to do a DNS en... |
One of the things Wish will do is actually make the server keys for you, just when you start it up for the first time, so you don't have to think about that. You should store them someplace secure, but it will generate them for you. But you just fire it up and you have encryption. And you also have identity, in a sense... |
**Jerod Santo:** Sure. |
**Toby Padilla:** You pull down all these symmetric keys, decrypt them with your private key, and then you can decrypt all of this encrypted data that's been pushed up to the Charm cloud. |
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