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So there's challenges that windowing systems and the web have come to solve over the decades that they've been in existence, that we want to solve, at least to some degree, but aren't all solved yet, to be completely honest. There's some things that we still need to work on. But because it's so early, that's also excit... |
Some of these terminals are pretty cool. Kitty is the terminal that we all like to use; a lot of us like to use it. And Kitty is a really great terminal. The person who made it has really pushed forward what he wants to be standards in terms of OSC codes; I believe that's what they are. So ansi escape codes that do thi... |
**Jerod Santo:** One thing I'm seeing, maybe a bug report, or -- I'm just curious; this is the kind of stuff that falls out, is with this two-paned UI that you have here. You have the menu on the left, and then you have the content on the right, which effectively looks like you're rendering Markdown readmes or somethin... |
**Toby Padilla:** It's a Markdown readme, yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. You're using your Lip Gloss...? |
**Toby Padilla:** Glamour. |
**Jerod Santo:** Glamour. Dang it! |
**Toby Padilla:** It's Bubble Tea, Glamour, Lip Gloss... It's got everything; it's got all of our stuff in it. |
**Jerod Santo:** It's bubbles all the way down. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** The works... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. So the git clone command in my terminal - I'm just using macOS Terminal by the app. I can highlight git clone, copy that, it works. But when I try to highlight, for instance, the description for "Bubble Tea, the fun, functional, stateful way to build terminal apps", and I go multi-line, it doesn'... |
**Toby Padilla:** Yup. |
**Jerod Santo:** ...and these are things that have to be figured out, and ironed out over time. |
**Toby Padilla:** Exactly. And maybe the answer to that is we change the layout for something, right? Because there might not be a good answer to that that exists today. But that's exactly the kind of stuff you're gonna hit when you start doing this. |
I think that terminal in particular is often challenging to develop for. You'll see, the lines have spaces between them probably when you're looking at this... That is a bug in OSX Terminal or macOS Terminal. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] |
**Toby Padilla:** Its performance isn't great... But it's the terminal of choice for everybody, right? It's the default terminal for millions and millions of people, so we have to -- so we're always like "Go download Kitty! Go get it now, because everything works super-awesome in it." But we can't rely on that. |
So hopefully, we push this world forward enough that even Apple pays attention. And we've heard that there's a bunch of people at Apple using our stuff, so it's a good first step... |
**Jerod Santo:** That's cool. |
**Toby Padilla:** ...but ideally, the terminal world starts to evolve as well. |
**Jerod Santo:** It's just an interesting world, because in the web you've got browser vendors, right? And then really, where you are -- and the "Download Kitty" was like the old "Go get Firefox" back in the day, right? |
**Toby Padilla:** Yeah. Exactly, yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[40:20\] And it's like, "Well, you can't expect everybody to do that." Maybe we'll get to 20% market share, but still, the other 80% are running IE9, back in the day. |
**Toby Padilla:** That'd be lovely, but it's probably 0.1%, unfortunately. Yeah, exactly. |
**Jerod Santo:** So it's the same exact problem, but a different space. Adam, you were gonna say something... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I was just gonna say, I can see the coming terminal wars, man... At some point maybe there's the terminal to rule them all. If apps become more prevalent, if this innovation keeps pushing forward, and we hackers find more and more ways to use this and it becomes mainstream... |
**Jerod Santo:** Or at least developer mainstream... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. Like I was saying to Toby the first time, if in the future this evolves to the point where when we SSH into let's say our VPS, for some reason... Like, if I wanna do that, I've got my identity attached to it, it's got a particular UI. Maybe there's the common everyday command line, but what if... |
**Toby Padilla:** We've been thinking about possibly non-text-based UIs. You can use SSH as a protocol for identity and data transfer above and beyond Terminal. And in fact, X Windows does this; there's an X Forwarding command on SSH that allows you to forward your X Windows over SSH. So that's an old, ancient idea peo... |
And talking quickly about Charm and our server, this is how this works - you use SSH to get a jwt back, and then we use that jwt on a bunch of HTTPS APIs. And we do that for sort of performance reasons, and so other people can build APIs using technology that they're familiar with. But we've been doing a lot of work, a... |
So this is moving, "Hey, here's who I am. Here's my public key SSH." Okay, we know who you are; that server who knows who you are issues a signed credential saying "We assert that this person is who they claim they are. Now, web server, whatever, you can rest assured that this person is who they claim that they are." Y... |
Again, going back to the Unix philosophy of doing one thing and one thing well, and composable apps... By doing SSH well, it opens up the door to lots of possibilities. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Are you familiar with the Raspberry Pi, by any change? |
**Toby Padilla:** Yeah, we love Raspberry Pi. In fact, one of our -- not all of our stuff works on it, but it's sort of like a target platform for us... Because one of the thigns we pitched BetaWorks when we started is "Hey, there's a bunch of really (what we call) low-power machines out there that the command line is ... |
I have like five Raspberry Pi's, and I have them all hooked up to my TVs, and they're more or less just Kodi servers. But I would love to actually use it as like a computer in a way that's more meaningful. So if you start making these rich command line apps, then these low-powered Raspberry Pi-esque machines become a v... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[44:24\] And I was even thinking like that, because there's a lot of people who have multiple Raspberry Pi's in their home lab; there's maybe one for their surveillance, or their automation, things like that... In my case I have a Pi-hole and that's pretty much it. I've got a Plex on a whole differ... |
**Toby Padilla:** That's exactly what we're thinking. It's such a good answer to remote-controlling something over the command line... Because historically, you're editing a lot of files. You're doing into Etsy and editing like a million flat files to get the configuration you want, because you don't have X Windows (or... |
You mentioned React, but that's similar to Elm, in that it's sort of like a reactive, functional design pattern. But that's what Bubble Tea is. If you wanna develop these TUIs in a hyper-modern fashion, that's what Bubble Tea allows you to do - use functional programming to build these. |
What people have learned over the past ten years in terms of building Web UIs, taking those practices and being able to build a TUI with it - we think it's cool. And that use case of having a bunch of Raspberry Pi's and you're controlling them through SSH is exactly the kind of thing that we wanna solve. |
For instance, we launched another project, and it was the first thing Carlos built. So when Carlos started, a week later he shipped his first project, and it was called Wishlist. He loves Wish, and so he's really excited about Wish... So Wishlist started as a proxy to other SSH server and other Wish apps. So he built t... |
Last week we released local mode. So now you can run Wishlist on a local machine, and it looks at your SSH configuration file, finds all of your hosts, and gives you a graphical interface for jumping into all of these hosts. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Hm. That'd be super-cool. |
**Toby Padilla:** So discovery, topography discovery of your network. You've got all your Raspberry Pi's in there and you don't have to -- yes, you can have complete it now but having a TUI jump off and discover all of your hosts is a good thing. It makes it easier to do this. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You're getting me excited, because my cat config lab when I do my SSH config, it's organized; I have all my machines in there, I've got local DNS resolving for machines because I run Raspberry Pi, the Pi-hole, and so because I have that, I've got local DNS essentially for all my machines. So I don't... |
**Jerod Santo:** "Build this one next..." \[laughs\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** ...because I essentially go to each one of them and manually update them. If I can manage all my hostfiles, all my config files that manage those hosts... |
**Jerod Santo:** You should set up a local DNS server and just point all their DNS to your DNS server. Them it can resolve those, and then you manage it at the DNS server. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[48:30\] I guess you could, but... |
**Toby Padilla:** You can actually do that with Pi-hole. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You can? |
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