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**Adam Stacoviak:** So end-to-end then. You're end-to-end. |
**Toby Padilla:** Yup, very end-to-end. We don't want your data. Data is a liability. It's not our business model; we don't want it, we don't wanna know what you're doing, we don't wanna see what you're doing. We are very big on privacy. For instance, we don't put analytics into our apps. You privacy is more important ... |
There was a year period we didn't know how many people were using Glow, because we didn't have any Charm cloud functionality. It was just a markdown reader that was not networked. So before we invented the Charm cloud and all this encryption stuff, Glow was simply a Markdown reader; you'd pass it a Markdown file and it... |
GitHub, by the way, has used Glamour in their official command line client to render Markdown. So if you use cli/cli on GitHub, all of the Markdown rendering is happening with Glamour. But we didn't have metrics, we didn't have analytics, and that was fine, because we wanted people to have privacy. We also don't think ... |
\[20:07\] I went to work at TweetDeck because I loved TweetDeck. And Ian, the TweetDeck founder, just made this thing. He was just like "I wanna look at tweets in columns. Make an app to do that." LastFM - RJ was a college student, and he invented scrobbling as his university project. He was like "I wanna track all my ... |
So you see these amazing products come out, not because of analytics, not because of studying user behavior, but because "I have a vision that I need to make this thing", and that to us tends to be the most exciting stuff to build. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** We'll obviously go deep into all the different product there is, but going back to Jerod's question with BetaWorks... Obviously, BetaWorks has a track record, so I think there's potentially some inherent de-risking of maybe putting you in a team together to do stuff like this... But what is your tra... |
**Toby Padilla:** Well, we were lucky in that we were at BetaWorks, because they're all about just making cool stuff, and seeing what happens. They never go into something saying "Let's turn this into a business at first." Having success is important, but it's always like "Let's build something interesting and see wher... |
So Alex is another one of our angels... So just having this crew of people who had worked together before, building experimental things... Giphy was an experiment. It was a weekend experiment that Alex built. He's like GIFs are cool; let's make a GIF search engine. And then he figured out how to monetize that. But that... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It's good to get that trust right away though; to have that "Hey, you've done some good work here. Let's do that." So you said you're a pre-seed... Is that right? |
**Toby Padilla:** We're seed now. So we've raised a few rounds of pre-seed. We closed our seed round in December of 2020. So our seed round was led by Cavalry; they're a German-based seed fund. They're awesome. We just clicked with them immediately. I have a fairly extensive investor network in Europe, because LastFM a... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Gotcha. What's the total funding so far? |
**Toby Padilla:** Total, 3.6 million. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Okay. You've got a burn rate, you've got a /open page on Charm.sh? I love that, by the way, when people have /open and it's like "Here's all the things we're doing", because they're so just transparent about what they're doing. |
**Toby Padilla:** We are transparent. We're not uber-transparent. We like surprises. It's like, "Hey, look at this cool thing that we've built. You didn't know about it. Here's something new." Our burn rate is low. We have six people. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[24:07\] Gotcha. |
**Toby Padilla:** The team is a lot like code - the less code you write, the better. The fewer people you hire, the better. Don't bloat your team. Don't increase your burn. Hire the right people. The way we hire is we don't do technical interviews. We find people we want to work for us, and then we try to convince them... |
So we're very proactive in our hiring. So when you find these people who have really demonstrated the ability to make something from zero to whatever, and ship it and support it and make it successful, you bring them on. One Carlos or one Muesli is worth 50 non-Carloses or Mueslis. GoReleaser is an amazing technology. ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** What that tells me though is like -- when we have this listening audience paying attention to these show we do, and we ask a question like that, we're not just probing, "Hey, what's your actual burn rate, Toby?" I don't really care, necessarily. I kind of wanna know, but what I wanna hear is the wis... |
We can almost respect and appreciate what you're doing way more because you have this innovation side of you, but you're also doing it with discipline. You're not just like, "Let's just throw money at it, hope it works. Let's just hire everybody who's ever creative", like some companies might do. Or you see some compan... |
**Toby Padilla:** Thank you. And actually, even speaking to the burn rate - we need to keep it low, because we like time. Time is innovation. We need time to innovate, to throw things against the wall to see what sticks, to iterate on ideas, to try new things. So think very much like an R&D project, where you can't hav... |
So we did a long development cycle on this. We did a recent release with the self-hosted Charm Cloud, Wish, Soft Serve... A bunch of stuff. That was like 11 months in the work. And that was quite frankly as far as we should ever go without having launched anything. And it was starting to get to the point where it's lik... |
**Break:** \[27:45\] |
**Jerod Santo:** So let's talk SSH. You brought up Wish earlier, we talked about how you can SSH right into git.charm.sh. for what is kind of a tabbed interface, with a menu, of your different projects. I'm assuming this was all built custom by you guys to provide this interface. Before we get into how to build these t... |
**Toby Padilla:** So SSH can do a lot of stuff, and what you're looking at there is a TUI. So it is a menu-ing system, it's to browse through. One of the nice things is that it keeps you on the command line. So you're gonna git clone something from the command line. So going back and forth between a web browser and the... |
One of the innovative things that GitHub did was this Flash-based clipboard of the SSH clone URL, remember? And I think maybe that's natively supported in the browser, but it wasn't at first. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I remember that, yeah. |
**Toby Padilla:** So that was just a way to get something from a web browser into the command line. So there's some value to being on the command line. But I think there's a few things that can happen with SSH. One, like you alluded to, it's a Git API. You can start to do really interesting things by layering -- you ad... |
For instance, Soft Serve is configurable by Git. So when you first run Soft Serve, the very first thing you do as the host is clone the config repo. So you clone the config repo, and it has a Markdown file, a readme file, which is what you see when you first get into git.charm.sh. And it has a yaml that lets you config... |
\[32:12\] We're also about to release a version of Soft Serve; we haven't released it, but probably in the next couple of days... That adds non-interactive SSH functionality. So TUIs are great; they're great for discoverability, they're great for having some kind of UI on the command line for remote controlling various... |
So at that point, you can start baking these things into your command line workflows. You can start exploring grepping things, manipulating the output of these files directly from a Git repo into other command line tools and pipelines, which we think is a really interesting idea... Because there's not a great way to do... |
**Jerod Santo:** So the other thing that's interesting about this particular TUI - which, just for the listeners' sake, that's TUI, terminal user interface... |
**Toby Padilla:** It's actually text. |
**Jerod Santo:** Oh, text. |
**Toby Padilla:** Text user interface, yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, thank you for correcting me. I don't even know what it is; I just assumed it was terminal. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Good guess... |
**Jerod Santo:** Because where else are you gonna look at your text? |
**Toby Padilla:** Why wouldn't it be terminal user interface, yeah. Absolutely. |
**Jerod Santo:** I'm ready to rebrand that sucker... No. So the text user interface is -- at the command line there are certain things that you come to think about, like pagination, or piping things into Less or something, and there's standardized key combinations that usually work... Of course, usually depending on wh... |
**Toby Padilla:** That's Bubble Tea. |
**Jerod Santo:** That's Bubble Tea, thank you. There's a lot of tools here. |
**Toby Padilla:** It's Bubble Tea, and Bubbles is a selection of components built for Bubble Tea. So some of that stuff is a bubble. It's a bubble that anyone can use. Some of it is custom components that we've built for this application. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay. So I guess what I'm driving at is if people are all adopting Bubble Tea at least in order to build some things, we can expect certain common paradigms inside of a Bubble Tea-based TUI, right? |
**Toby Padilla:** Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay. Because I would be concerned that everything would be ad-hoc, and... |
**Toby Padilla:** And super Wild West style? |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. I like predictabilities of the command line. It seems like this might lose it if people are all built on different ways. |
**Toby Padilla:** So we're seeing a lot of particular components being used quite a bit in other people's apps. So the viewport used all over the place. You'll see we have a little help menu down at the bottom - that's part of a component. That's something everybody seems to like, because they're baking it in... There'... |
\[36:20\] Easy things, we've kind of fixed. And it's not even easy, but like I've mentioned before, do you have a light background or a dark background? When possible - and this isn't possible with Wish, because you can't do this over SSH... But on a TUI that you're running native to your machine, we detect your backgr... |
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