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**Mihalis Tsoukalos:** The key to writing the book is to enjoy the process first. Because if you don't enjoy the process, it's difficult. The second is that you have to think of the reader as a friend; not as money, but as something that you're trying to help... You know, just help. Try to explain and don't assume that... |
\[20:22\] The other thing that I told you before - write for your friends, edit for your enemies. You should be edit hard, for your own good. That's the way to do -- you have the skeleton, you have the text, but you have to edit hard. I'm still learning that. I really enjoy books like The C Programming Language, or The... |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Right, right. Everything you need, nothing you don't. |
**Mihalis Tsoukalos:** Yeah. And they have written these books with troff and Unix tools, and that's really amazing. \[laughter\] |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Yeah... |
**Mihalis Tsoukalos:** Not even latex |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Yeah, not even modern tools that we have. That is amazing. |
**Mihalis Tsoukalos:** And they have created classic books, just for the love of it. |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Indeed, indeed. Yeah, I always tell folks that based on all the publishers that I talk to, and having been part of book projects and everything else, I'm like, "Okay, people who do this - it's not done for money." This is definitely a labor of love, the advance that you get really is not -- if yo... |
So again, the book is called Mastering Go, and I wanted to talk about what we believe mastering Go today looks like. If somebody started out saying, "Hey, you know what - I'm gonna pick up this language, and I wanna master it." What does that journey look like for somebody who's basically starting today and saying "I w... |
**Mihalis Tsoukalos:** Look, my book is here to help people - not master Go, but like Go. If you like Go and you use it, you're going to master it. The thing that mastered everything is the marketing stuff mainly. You cannot master something, but... |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Right, right, right. |
**Mihalis Tsoukalos:** No book will help you master anything. |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Right. \[laughs\] |
**Mihalis Tsoukalos:** It's like swimming. You cannot master swimming by reading about swimming. You have to swim. So I just try to make people love Go, understand what they can do and what they can't do with Go, and where Go is -- what are the advantages and disadvantages of Go, and then Go out and write software. Tha... |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Yeah. You're gonna learn by bumping your head against things, and researching, and figuring out how it's done... Yeah. That's really key to mastering anything, right? You have to keep doing it. |
**Mihalis Tsoukalos:** Yes. |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** \[23:59\] For me, whenever I hear the term "master this, master that", I'm like -- yeah, like you said, this is marketing. I get it. But to me, at some point I believe you can reach what we can consider the realm of mastery. When somebody can present a problem and say "Hey, how would you approach... |
**Mihalis Tsoukalos:** Exactly. |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** As you become so comfortable with the language that it's no longer a matter of "Okay, how do I piece together this syntax?" but I have a problem that I wanna solve. I wanna go from problem statement to possible solution and something that I can test, and not having to worry about the actual writi... |
**Mihalis Tsoukalos:** Yes, exactly. |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** So to me, when you've mastered Go or when you're reaching a level of mastery, I think that's when you know; when the language sort of fades away, it gets out of your way, and it's just about now communicating your design or your idea, you're communicating that an bringing something to life. That'... |
**Mihalis Tsoukalos:** Me too, yes. |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** I'm like, "Okay, yeah, I've been doing it for a while, but I expect - hopefully, if I'm lucky, I'll still be doing it for years and years to come, so I expect that ease of just using the language and it kind of fading away as a tool, and not really thinking about it too much... I expect that to c... |
Personally, that's why I love Go, because - can I stick with this language for a decade? Can I use this language and be happy using it for a decade or more? To me, that's gonna give me enough time to get to the mastery level, and that's the journey that I'm on... Like, "Can I spend a decade on this language?" |
**Mihalis Tsoukalos:** And the most important point is that a master knows when not to use it. |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Mm-hm, mm-hm... |
**Mihalis Tsoukalos:** You cannot solve everything with a tool. You have to know when not to use it. It's equally important. |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Yeah, agreed. So obviously, you've been a part of the Go community for a while... Personally, I'm big on the Go community overall; I think technology is technology, but the people is what makes it fun. I'm interested in knowing - do you have any stories about the community, or people, some of you... |
**Mihalis Tsoukalos:** \[laughs\] Lots of people's writings have helped me a lot, and especially the official Go Blog is really helpful. I have read many things from Mat, who's not here with us today, and Bill Kennedy has helped me a lot... His writings are very good, and he's always ready to help and willing to help p... |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** \[27:52\] Yeah, I totally agree. These are definitely some of my favorite people as well. I happened to also have the distinct pleasure of co-hosting this podcast with Mat every once in a while, along with my fantastic other co-hosts that grace the mic here every once in a while... And again, for... |
I usually say -- pretty much every year we have a GopherCon, which is the big, official, I'd say the biggest Go conference we have year-round. And over the years we've gotten a lot more conferences spread throughout the world as well, but GopherCon is sort of the big one, and the one that usually gets a lot of people s... |
**Mihalis Tsoukalos:** Oh yes, that's great. |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** So I am looking forward to that. I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to that, to see people I haven't seen in quite some time, or only online here and there... But yeah, at GopherCon I usually see the makeup of the audience; it's usually, consistently, there are more newbie Go developer... |
So that means Go still has a lot of time, a lot of growth in front of it. We're just gonna continue to attract a ton of new people into the community, and to me, it's important that with every layer of growth, right? Every ring in the tree if you will, people that come in and that we add to the community, that we conti... |
**Mihalis Tsoukalos:** Exactly, exactly. |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** ...be helpful... All of these things that basically this community has as core values. So we definitely want that to keep growing, along with the number of people that we have coming into the community. So to me, that's huge. Obviously, you play your own role in that, in creating learning materia... |
**Mihalis Tsoukalos:** Thank you. \[laughs\] |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** I did wanna ask a couple more questions, and then we're gonna switch it over to unpopular opinions. I hope you brought an unpopular opinion... |
**Mihalis Tsoukalos:** Yes. |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Nice, nice. Obviously. Go is not the only language you've used; obviously, you've done some C, and whatnot; you even built an FTP client in C. Who knows, you should do that in Go and compare notes, and see "Okay, what was that experience like?" But anything else that you're actively using and lea... |
**Mihalis Tsoukalos:** I'm using Python a lot nowadays, because I'm doing some excess things with time series and stuff, and Python is really good at that. Big data, and things. |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Okay. |
**Mihalis Tsoukalos:** For the first time I wrote Java last year. |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Oh. \[laughs\] |
**Mihalis Tsoukalos:** I don't like Java, but I had to... |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Well, I'm sorry... \[laughter\] |
**Mihalis Tsoukalos:** It's not a bad programming language, but it's not my favorite. |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Yeah, no shade to the Java developers out there. We love you, too. |
**Mihalis Tsoukalos:** I don't like the syntax. It's not a bad programming language, but I don't like the syntax. I never liked the syntax. But as we said before, it's a common secret that a good programmer can write in any programming language. You can pick up a programming language really easily, especially when you ... |
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