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[1828.34 --> 1832.94] It's very hard to get, like, your network-related monitoring right.
[1832.94 --> 1836.24] And your saturation for networks.
[1836.40 --> 1837.72] Like, how do you do that?
[1838.12 --> 1852.84] And get the wrong set of, like, I've seen myself having a wrong set of dashboards and alerting and wondering why this is going off every time something happens when it shouldn't have and stuff.
[1852.84 --> 1869.62] So I think it's just, like, being okay to experiment and, like, continuously tinker your monitoring and alerting as you go along is probably something that teams should be conscious that, like, it's not that you build it once and then it's there.
[1869.70 --> 1870.34] It's there forever.
[1870.72 --> 1873.94] But there is a continuous evolution that happens with your monitoring.
[1873.94 --> 1877.18] Like how your feature sets go through that cycle.
[1877.52 --> 1881.76] You have to do the same with your observability side of things as well.
[1882.34 --> 1882.72] Yeah, yeah.
[1883.02 --> 1884.52] Matt, can I answer too?
[1885.16 --> 1886.04] Let me just check.
[1886.74 --> 1886.96] No.
[1887.66 --> 1888.54] Oh, come on.
[1888.84 --> 1891.70] Brutal, but please, I'd love to hear what you think.
[1891.70 --> 1897.54] So, but, Niana, you were talking about the value, like, derived, right, and focusing on that for the customers.
[1897.76 --> 1903.44] That I do think that's a common gotcha where you build all these tools and you're like, we did it.
[1903.52 --> 1904.00] We did it.
[1904.04 --> 1904.78] Like, it's all there.
[1904.92 --> 1906.12] All you have to do is this, right?
[1906.16 --> 1911.82] And I think the common gotcha is forgetting that you need to deliver something that someone could just adopt easily.
[1911.90 --> 1916.54] Like you said, like, it is a version of, I was thinking, like, car parts, right?
[1916.54 --> 1921.86] And then, like, or Legos, I guess, but, like, dropping off, like, a collection of car parts and being like, there you go.
[1922.20 --> 1925.30] And you're like, you know, like, I want to drive, right?
[1925.30 --> 1929.02] Like, I don't, like, I get that I can get there, but you haven't helped me really at all.
[1929.38 --> 1932.58] And there's, you know, and you call a Lyft and that's where the metaphor, I think, breaks.
[1932.88 --> 1936.26] But I do think there's some version of that too, right?
[1936.28 --> 1945.94] Like stopping short of actually delivering the value to the person consuming it as opposed to just dropping a collection of pieces that can work, but they have to do the last mile.
[1945.94 --> 1951.30] Yeah, well, in a way, what helps that definitely is going to be this, you build it, you run it.
[1951.44 --> 1958.92] You know, we're not throwing this thing over the wall to someone, for someone else to operate, which I know that actually lots of, lots of people do still do that.
[1959.14 --> 1960.58] And there's a disconnect.
[1961.02 --> 1965.98] When you are yourselves kind of running it, you're the customer of that data.
[1966.20 --> 1973.22] So a bit like when you're dogfooding software, if you write, if you're building dev tools, like we do at Grafana, we dogfood a lot.
[1973.22 --> 1975.46] Like we'll use our tools a lot internally.
[1975.46 --> 1981.96] That's how they're so good, frankly, like, because they've been, you know, it's not like we're imagining the user of this.
[1982.32 --> 1983.46] We are the user of it.
[1983.50 --> 1985.40] And I think that makes a big difference, doesn't it?
[1985.80 --> 1986.00] Yeah.
[1986.22 --> 1994.30] And also, I think like one of the comments I've heard a few people say about is build your code in such a way that you can debug it at three in the morning.
[1994.30 --> 1997.16] I mean, it doesn't mean that you have to do it every day.
[1997.36 --> 2003.78] But if it breaks at a time that you're not fully in focus, you still can get to it easily.
[2004.06 --> 2009.58] And that is something which I think, yeah, people should be thinking about while building the products and stuff.
[2009.58 --> 2012.72] That's such a great point, I think.
[2012.96 --> 2017.02] And that leads me on to this next question, which is around like drills.
[2017.40 --> 2024.38] Do we should we be doing like drills at 3 a.m. and living that experience to see what it's like?
[2024.52 --> 2028.08] Three o'clock is probably taking the mickey out of people if you were doing drills.
[2028.08 --> 2031.24] Do people do drills?
[2031.72 --> 2032.68] I guess they do.
[2033.10 --> 2033.24] Right.
[2033.32 --> 2034.04] But it's probably not.
[2034.12 --> 2035.36] It's not common, is it?
[2035.82 --> 2037.00] I have seen it done.
[2037.96 --> 2041.96] And I think it's a very artificial environment where the drills happen.
[2041.96 --> 2047.10] So one of the things that we did when I was at the FT was we had this incident drills.
[2047.64 --> 2051.80] So basically, you emulate an incident and then you go about with the team.
[2052.18 --> 2055.28] How do you go about actually figuring out where the problem is?
[2055.28 --> 2062.38] So you start with like which alert it was and then look at the traces and then look at what the logs were.
[2062.52 --> 2064.22] And you go through the whole cycle of it.
[2064.54 --> 2070.80] It was a way to like ease the whole out of our support that we had within the organization.
[2071.34 --> 2071.70] Yeah.
[2071.76 --> 2075.24] But at the same time, there were a lot of people who were not very keen of this.
[2075.82 --> 2080.26] Because it's an artificial environment, people felt like that is not reality.
[2080.44 --> 2081.64] So why do it?
[2081.70 --> 2083.02] That's because you didn't do it 3 a.m.
[2083.02 --> 2085.34] Yeah, maybe that.
[2085.86 --> 2089.14] I think there's like a touch of maturity in actually embracing drills.
[2089.24 --> 2090.84] Like whether or not it's artificial, right?
[2090.86 --> 2093.12] Like it's that idea like, oh, this is artificial.
[2093.32 --> 2093.84] This is dumb.
[2094.10 --> 2094.82] You know, we don't want to do this.
[2094.84 --> 2095.92] It's not going to be like this in real life.
[2096.04 --> 2103.20] And then I think like you think about any kind of, I don't know, like either team environment or any kind of like practice that you need to do.
[2103.20 --> 2105.64] Because it's more than just debugging the code, right?
[2105.66 --> 2107.56] It's like everything is interconnected, right?
[2107.56 --> 2111.74] And you want to be able to do some of these things more than once.
[2111.80 --> 2114.06] So that way every time doesn't feel like you're the first time on stage.
[2114.70 --> 2121.76] And it does, it feels like you just want to be like, hey, like what's the right analogy to make if you want to convince someone to actually practice?
[2122.52 --> 2123.18] I don't know.
[2123.18 --> 2124.22] Yeah, definitely.
[2124.46 --> 2125.64] It's not the same.
[2125.84 --> 2128.26] It's not the same because you know it's a drill.
[2128.60 --> 2135.46] Like unless you're doing something where you literally, you break something and it's not really broken or maybe it is.
[2135.54 --> 2138.26] And you're, you know, doing something kind of, that seems a bit extreme.
[2138.46 --> 2140.86] But you are, it is going to feel different.
[2141.04 --> 2144.68] But that still doesn't mean that there's not plenty of stuff to practice.
[2144.68 --> 2151.50] And, you know, like practicing your, when you practice driving, you know, there's an instructor next to you watching everything.
[2151.64 --> 2155.10] That's a very strange situation to be in.
[2155.24 --> 2161.04] But, but you still are like, you still move the steering wheel and do the, I don't drive, but there's a gear stick.
[2161.18 --> 2161.52] I know that.
[2161.74 --> 2162.68] And the horn.
[2164.02 --> 2165.28] You press the horn to go.
[2165.54 --> 2165.94] Yeah.
[2166.06 --> 2166.76] Horn to go.
[2166.82 --> 2167.92] And then you leave that on.
[2168.00 --> 2169.02] So everyone knows you're there.
[2169.10 --> 2171.88] I do because they need to get out of the way.
[2171.88 --> 2176.58] I think there's also like value in like this.
[2176.84 --> 2179.56] The other way of looking at drills is like shadowing.
[2179.76 --> 2185.36] And when there's an actual incident, not, not having just one or two people involved in it.
[2185.44 --> 2192.36] Yes, it might be the most critical thing, but having more people just listen in and see what's happening and like just be there.