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**Natalie Pistunovich:** This comment line is too short to hold this wonderful proof that I'm sentient... |
**Mat Ryer:** Yeah, that'd be good if it said that. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** It's very easy to miss the reference of what I said. |
**Jerod Santo:** Alright, sorry to derail. Thanks for answering for me. We can go back to velocity now. I've killed the velocity of this conversation... |
**Mat Ryer:** \[30:15\] Velocity...! |
**Jerod Santo:** Let's pick it back up. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** I think Copilot helps velocity... |
**Jerod Santo:** You think so? |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** I think AI generally, this AI tooling for development will definitely put us in different concepts of what those numbers mean. |
**Jerod Santo:** I think the key is being able to stay out of the browser tab, and in your editor for things that you know want to do, but can't remember syntax, or the best way... And you pop over to Stack Overflow or Google to get "How do I do x in this circumstance?" Staying, I think, in your editor, certainly -- be... |
I think it keeping you in that developer mode and not in browser mode, or research mode, I think it will help people quite a bit... These kinds of tools, to generify it. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Also, if it stays up to date enough, it will not land you on Stack Overflow answers from 2009, which will be a great save of time as well |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. |
**Mat Ryer:** Yeah. And you're still responsible for the quality anyway, even if Copilot's writing some bits for you; still, you're responsible for it. You can never say "Oh, sorry about this bug. Copilot wrote it." You should never find yourself saying that, really, because you are accepting the work that Copilot's co... |
One of the things I like is that as things naturally take over and become bigger than you expected in the beginning - because they always will, more or less; honestly, basically all the time... As that happens, it gets soaked up by the velocity, and it's sort of acceptable that that happens. It's sort of admitting that... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. How do you convince people of that case, that what we need to flex on is scope? Because the business side of many organizations - they want to flex on anything but that. They kind of want all three - they want quality, speed and scope. But I think given what I've seen, and I think given a lot of ... |
**Mat Ryer:** \[33:50\] It's difficult. And what you're really fighting against, or one of the things you're fighting against is that the sales organization are selling the roadmap very often. So it's already sold. As soon as it hits a roadmap, as soon as there's a hint of an idea. Even if it's next year, they will be ... |
**Jerod Santo:** Mm-hm. Natalie, have you ever had to have these conversations around cost, time, scope and quality with regards to demands on your work? |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Once or twice... \[laughter\] |
**Jerod Santo:** How'd it go? Do you have advice, or anything? |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** It's interesting to see this from the perspective of the different times that I have these organizations, because the first times I was in such a conversation, I was very junior, and everything seemed like "I'll probably say something wrong... I will underestimate -- if they say this is importa... |
So I'm working now at a stealth mode startup, which means we're very few developers, and we're doing -- kind of everybody does everything. And then recently, the past few sprints I stopped doing back end, and I kind of am doing a bit more of the infrastructure things. Specifically now logs. So we have some logs in plac... |
And so I've been having long discussions on how much time does it make sense to invest into improving the existing logs, and kind of making a good thing to rely on moving forward. So... Very close to home. |
**Jerod Santo:** How are those negotiations going? Is that an uphill battle? We have a good culture of disagree and commit, and we have a good culture of you own what you own, for better and worse; so kind of you take the decision, and then you are responsible for the outcome. |
So I own this part, I kind of explained why I think I will disagree, and we will all commit to moving forward with me investing more time than planned on that. And as a self-reflection thing, this is being able to have this conversation and have this stand, and also understand that if it's a bad decision because whatev... |
**Mat Ryer:** A bleep test. Did you ever do the bleep test? |
**Jerod Santo:** It's a bleep test. The watch has been participating in several episodes; there was one episode where we laughed about this -- you can ask it the time and it will respond. And it did. So now I just accidentally pressed Start measuring exercise. So it did the countdown, 3, 2, 1. |
**Mat Ryer:** Oh, right. |
**Jerod Santo:** I thought you were maybe doing a-- |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Attention span right? |
**Jerod Santo:** I thought you were playing Excitebike, or some other NES game... |
**Mat Ryer:** It sounded like -- there used to be a bleep test thing at school where you'd have to run across the hall, and then just as you reached the other side in time for the next beep. But then the beeps just got faster and faster. So eventually-- |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** \[38:03\] Oh, so like Fibonacci. It all comes back to that. It makes a lot of sense. |
**Mat Ryer:** Yeah. That just took me back to that... Horrible memory. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** We did not have that. Did you have that, Jerod? |
**Jerod Santo:** No. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Running in the hallway with beeps...? |
**Jerod Santo:** No. |
**Mat Ryer:** Did you have mandatory military service though, Natalie? |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** \[laughs\] That was not measured in beeps, yeah. \[laughter\] |
**Mat Ryer:** Yeah. It makes me a bit scared of Natalie. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Virtually, it's fine. |
**Mat Ryer:** Yeah. \[laughs\] |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Going back to the point of feeling senior enough to be able to kind of take such a decision and explain that and being ready to be accountable for that... And circling this back to what we started talking about in the very beginning, of measuring points... So this is a good skill you have a lit... |
**Mat Ryer:** Yeah. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** What are your thoughts of the statement that I'll say that a coding interview for juniors is actually one way of measuring this, and kind of understand the value a junior person will be bringing going forward? |
**Mat Ryer:** Somehow testing the velocity, or the-- |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** To have a very rough estimate, but more than nothing. |
**Mat Ryer:** I don't know... I mean, I was maybe gonna save it for the unpopular opinions... But yeah, I think trying to estimate how long something's going to take is like -- I think we spend a lot of time trying to do it, and the results aren't good enough to really justify the effort we put into it. |
Honestly, a better approach is let the scope be flexible. Pick the deadline, sure, have that released already, but the actual scope - let that be flexible. And then build teams that you trust, that you don't need to micromanage and check on. Build motivated teams, keep teams motivated, put in that effort to do that, an... |
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