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**Mat Ryer:** It felt like it... |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Throughout the sunset. |
**Mat Ryer:** It's been a pleasure. There's not two people I wouldn't rather spend an entire long day with... So thank you very much. It's okay just to say that, but... Fine... |
• TDD (Test-Driven Development) discussion |
• Bill Kennedy's tweet on prototype-driven development and data-driven design |
• Bill's approach to testing: writing tests after API design is solidified |
• Importance of experiencing API as a user through manual testing |
• Criticism of traditional TDD approach and use of assert packages in testing |
• Importance of testing APIs from the user's perspective |
• Benefits of writing tests after designing the API, including catching usability issues and simplifying code |
• The value of high-quality feedback loops in software development |
• How poorly-designed code makes it difficult to test and vice versa |
• Misconceptions about Test-Driven Development (TDD) and its true nature as a process that involves writing tests early on, not necessarily first. |
• Importance of writing tests first in software development |
• Dangers of over-refactoring and redesigning code instead of refactoring existing code |
• Misconceptions about test-driven development (TDD) and its perceived slowness |
• Designing APIs and thinking about them as a user, not an implementer |
• Red/green testing approach to TDD, including the importance of seeing a test fail first |
• Using error messages as a guide for writing tests and code |
• Integrating multiple teams and modules in large projects and designing APIs that fit together smoothly |
• The importance of thinking about design in the context of integrating packages into a project |
• Top-down development approach vs bottom-up: Chris James favors top-down due to high-quality feedback loops |
• Acceptance tests as black box testing that exercises the system's behavior, not its internal workings |
• Integration tests check how units interact with each other within the system |
• End-to-end testing as a way to test the system from outside in, simulating real-world interactions |
• Creating APIs for frontend consumption |
• The importance of testing and prototyping in API development |
• Collaboration between backend and frontend teams |
• Minimizing guessing and uncertainty in API design |
• Using test data as a starting point for API development |
• Integrating frontend and backend development from the beginning |
• Designing application-level models |
• Data-driven development and understanding the data model |
• Frontend developers writing handlers and defining data models |
• Decoupling business layer models from application layer models |
• Testing and unit tests vs integration tests, with discussion on whether database interactions are a unit test or an integration test |
• Test pyramid concept discussed to explain different types of tests |
• Importance of unit tests for precise feedback and refactoring |
• NASA study on code bugs and testing as a solution |
• Definition of "done" when it comes to writing tests, with varying opinions |
• Measurement of test coverage and confidence as factors in determining completion |
• Importance of using stable and well-maintained libraries (PQ driver for Postgres) |
• Code coverage and testing approach: test every error case, especially API-related ones |
• Defining "done": it's done when it's done, with a focus on understanding requirements and expressing them in BDD terms |
• Recovery from bugs: mean time to recovery is more important than preventing bugs, and an effective test suite is key |
• MVP (Minimum Viable Product) approach: starting with basic functionality and then adding to it, including testing of expected behavior and unexpected errors |
• Anticipating misuse and catching it in tests |
• Deploy-first development: deploying early and often, rather than waiting until the end |
• Continuous Integration/Continuous Deployment (CI/CD): running acceptance tests in production to enable agility |
• Dev/prod parity as a goal for software development |
• Challenges of managing the cost of change in software development |
• Benefits of running tests in production, including increased confidence and reduced pain when introducing changes |
• Concerns about running tests in production, including database manipulation and API calls that may change state or incur costs |
• Importance of designing architecture to enable test automation in production |
• Separation of concerns between testing as a user vs. using special secrets for testing |
• Bill Kennedy's unpopular opinion on the FTX crash not being directly associated with blockchain technology |
• Chris James' unpopular opinion on football coming home (a reference to the 2018 World Cup) |
• Mat Ryer mentions having an unpopular opinion that he can't remember writing down |
• Natalie Pistunovich teases the topic for a future episode |
• Chris James and others express interest in hearing Mat's opinion |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Good time of the day, wherever you all are. Today we are here to talk about TDD - is it good, is it bad, what other alternatives are out there? And I'm being joined by my co-host, Mat. Hi, Mat. How are you doing? |
**Mat Ryer:** Yeah, hello, Natalie. I'm alright. Thanks. How are you? |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Good. You are very well centered in the stream, in the video part, so I'm grateful that we're all trying to keep doing that throughout the episode. |
**Mat Ryer:** Thank you. I'll take that as a compliment. I have had better compliments, but I'll take it. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** This is a compliment right now. It's great that you are taking it. |
**Mat Ryer:** Yeah. Thank you. Normally, you say like "Oh, you look well" or "How attractive you are." But no. "You are centered in the screen." |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** It's a German compliment, Mat. |
**Mat Ryer:** Okay. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** I can see you well. |
**Mat Ryer:** Well then, danke. \[laughter\] Yeah, danke. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Bitte. And we are joined by two guests today. We have Chris James, who wrote the book on testing with Go, "Learn Go with tests", specifically... And you are now an engineering manager at SolPay Hi, Chris. |
**Chris James:** Hey. How's it going? |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** Good. You have lots of coffee in your background. |
**Chris James:** Yeah, I enjoy coffee, and I drank loads, so I'm hyped up. And I'm fairly well centered. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** You are, and that's great. And we're joined by Bill, who before anything else, is also well centered. Bill, it's awesome. And Bill wears many hats, including the one with the many pins, and you have the one -- so you are a trainer of Go, and recently blockchain, you are heading GoBridge, and al... |
**Bill Kennedy:** I'm doing great, in Miami, where it's nice and warm. I just want to say that... Because I live in the Caribbean. It's been -- other than we've had torrential rain for two days, but you know... You've got to pay your price a little bit. |
**Mat Ryer:** Nice. |
**Natalie Pistunovich:** So the tweet that you tweeted in September and led a very long conversation is about TDD and how you feel about that... And I'll start with reading it. So you're writing that you've never kept it a secret that you're not a fan of TDD; you believe in prototype-driven development, PDD, with a foc... |
**Bill Kennedy:** Wow. I said all that one day, huh? |
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