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**Dr. Dawn Foster:** Yeah, so you kind of have to -- if you're talking about it from CHAOSS perspective, you kind of have to use one of the tools, and load your project's data into it. And then you can access it. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I guess a better question is how does it work? How do I use CHAOSS? |
**Dr. Dawn Foster:** Yeah, so we have two tools. So we have Augur, which I use within VMware myself... So the way Augur works is on the backend it's a Postgres database. So basically, what it does is it pulls -- it has a bunch of workers that pull data from GitHub, for example, and puts it in a very nicely-structured P... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Okay. |
**Dr. Dawn Foster:** And then we also use the \[unintelligible 00:45:03.28\] |
**Jerod Santo:** Say what? |
**Dr. Dawn Foster:** So GrimoireLab is one of them, and there's a company called \[unintelligible 00:45:08.29\] So that's the other piece of software, and it uses the ELK stack. So basically, Elastic Search, although they're migrating to OpenSearch, and a fork of Kibana called \[unintelligible 00:45:23.07\] So it's mor... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Gotcha. |
**Dr. Dawn Foster:** So that I think is great for community managers who really want to dig in on their individual project and want to know every little bit about it, because the dashboards have all this stuff already in them, and then you can write custom queries around it. So Augur is more powerful if you want to wri... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[46:14\] How did you get to those four metrics? Why are those the ones that are important to your team? And where are they? Recount them for us, and then why. |
**Dr. Dawn Foster:** Yeah, sure. Yeah, so the four metrics are response time, for -- I picked pull requests; response time for pull requests. And so our guideline internally is that if someone submits a pull request, we should have a human respond to it within two business days. So I exclude the bots, and then I look a... |
And then I look at change request closure ratio, which is basically - in a given month, there are a total of 100 open pull requests during that month. Did you close 90 of them? Did you close 50 of them? And how big is the gap between the number of pull requests and the number of pull requests you closed? So this is kin... |
So response time is good, because new contributors want a response to their contribution. Everybody wants a response to their contribution. The pull requests backlog is good, because it shows that people are either merging pull requests or closing them without merge... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. It's like throughput. |
**Dr. Dawn Foster:** Yeah. Because you don't want a huge backlog of pull requests. I look at release frequency... So I want to make sure that when they release bug fixes and security fixes, that they actually land in a release in a timely manner. So those are not just like big releases, but like individual point releas... |
So I picked those because I thought it was a representative sample of things that a lot of people care about. And then what I want the projects to do and the maintainers to do is then drill down and have other metrics. So like I said, we have a team using the GrimoireLab tools for their metrics, and then we have other ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** What metrics hit your cutting room floor? What metrics was important, but didn't make the cut? |
**Dr. Dawn Foster:** That's a good question. I didn't really approach it that way. I just picked the four that I thought were important, and we went with those. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So you only chose four. |
**Dr. Dawn Foster:** Just four. I'm focused. Focused. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Okay. It seems like the importance of those metrics is - I'm trying to paraphrase - contributor; if I give a pull request, I want as a human who spent my time and effort to give you, the project, some value, whether it's X or Y, some sort of feedback. But the other one where I think you were talking... |
**Dr. Dawn Foster:** Yeah. And do you recruit more contributors from outside the company? So do you get more people involved in the project, because you're not keeping up with the contributions? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. How well is this idea used by other projects? This seems to be like a very good idea... How many people are using CHAOSS and Augur to kind of dig in like you have, to showcase its health? |
**Dr. Dawn Foster:** \[50:03\] So lots of companies, actually... So I think lots of the big companies that have open source program offices have at one time or another used some of the CHAOSS tools. Yeah, I hate to name names, because I can't remember which ones I can talk about and which ones I can't... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You don't have to name names... |
**Dr. Dawn Foster:** But most of the big open source program offices at the big companies have used the CHAOSS tools, and are involved in the CHAOSS project. So if you look at the people who are coming to meetings and being involved in the CHAOSS project right now, we see people from Bloomberg, and Microsoft, and Googl... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** More specifically, why did you not score? Like, why did you not establish maladaptive, healthy, a score of 50... Why the pushback against the scoring? Is it too concrete? Do you need to be a bit more ambiguous in terms of like that true health? |
**Dr. Dawn Foster:** No, it's because every project is different. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Okay. |
**Dr. Dawn Foster:** So how do you compare a Kubernetes, and give that a -- any algorithm that you could put together, that would score something like Kubernetes, and then compare it to a project that has two contributors, and 10 pull requests a month... Any metric that you could score would give you wildly different r... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. |
**Dr. Dawn Foster:** So there's lots of stuff that can impact that. If it's a mostly European-based project, you see a big dip in July, because we're all on vacation... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Does it answer the question "Are we healthy or not?" What's the question specifically that it answers? |
**Jerod Santo:** Community health. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, because you can score health and say "We are healthy", or "We're healthy-ish", and it can be specific to your repo, and I can understand why, if it's a European team, why July might be less so. And it's not like -- even as an OSPO, I might be like "Are my projects healthy, or are they less hea... |
**Dr. Dawn Foster:** Yeah. The question I like to ask is "Where can I improve?" So that is where I try to focus on the metrics, is being able to look at where I can improve. But you can use it as kind of a gut check for whether it's healthy or not healthy. So I do that; within the VMware projects there's an arbitrary t... |
And then we have other projects that are at risk simply because they're very large, and my threshold is arbitrary, and doesn't suit them well, because they're a really big project, and my thresholds work really well for the average size projects that we have. So just - yeah, it just depends on the project. |
**Jerod Santo:** It makes sense. One last question for you... You said at a certain point it might be time to recruit an outside contributor... What does that look like? How do you do that? |
**Dr. Dawn Foster:** Again, it depends on the project, but a good place to start is by looking at the people that are adopting it. And so if you have people who are using your project, that's a good place to start, to talk to some of them to see if any of them are interested in contributing. Sometimes you have people w... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And what do you say? Do you say "We have a core team member slot opening up, because we recognized we have a lack, and we have more space for another team member"? And do you suggest to these adopters, "Hey, we have a slot opening up. Submit a request to fill it", or "Do you have anybody available?"... |
**Dr. Dawn Foster:** \[54:22\] Yeah, so I don't really look at it as like a spot opening up. If you have an open source project, you're always looking for contributors, so you're always looking for more people to get involved. And ideally, your governance documentation will give you some guidelines for how you recruit ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Are those governance documents different per project, or is it sort of VMware at large, government documents, or governance documents, that's how it works? |
**Dr. Dawn Foster:** No, they're different depending on the project. And I also work with a bunch of -- so I spent a lot of time in the CNCF contributor strategy/technical advisory group, and one of the things that we work on for CNCF projects is governance templates. So we have three different governance templates tha... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And if someone's out there saying, "Wow, CHAOSS sounds awesome. I run an OSPO and I've never heard of it", what should they do? |
**Dr. Dawn Foster:** They should go to chaoss.community, which is our website, and we have loads of regular project meetings, we have working groups you can get involved in, and so I would say poke around there and there's information on how to participate. And we're very welcoming to new community members. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** What's your time to pull request closure ratio? What's that -- |
**Dr. Dawn Foster:** Yeah, that's a good question. I have no idea. \[laughter\] No idea. |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, thanks for joining us today. This is cool. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, thank you, Dawn. |
**Dr. Dawn Foster:** Yeah, thanks for having me. |
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