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\[01:18:12.20\] |
*"I am... Inevitable..."* |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, that's really -- I mean, I do agree. I think the reason why we -- and I say we as a royal we, where it's not really my opinion... The pushback against it is that I never thought it would happen in my lifetime, I guess. And so it seems so sci-fi, all you can do is -- you really have to suspend ... |
**Steve Yegge:** I really like that framing. I really do. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's the problem, is everyone is having that trouble. It's like, "I never thought we would truly have what is considered, buzzword or not, artificial intelligence, in my lifetime." And the fact that it's here, and we have to explain it on podcasts, and be seasoned engineers that have done major th... |
**Steve Yegge:** I love the way you framed it. I love this, Adam. Sorry, go ahead. What's the "and"? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's it, really. I'm just in disbelief that that's -- that's why it's so hard to believe that it's really here... But now that it is, the point is it is inevitable. It's here, it's not going to go away, the boat is landing on the land, and all the trolls or whatever you want to call them in this b... |
**Steve Yegge:** And it'll be polished, right? I mean, look at your journey on this show, from Skype and mailing USB sticks around from your guests, to Riverside today, right? Stuff gets better. And a lot of engineers are young, and they don't see that the world used to not have AWS and Kubernetes. They don't see that ... |
**Jerod Santo:** And the current state of affairs is kind of like "The future is here, but not evenly distributed", and the distribution is like your ecosystem. So if you're coding Python, if you're coding Java probably, things that are well established and have tons of public resources, you have a better experience to... |
**Steve Yegge:** That's right. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[01:21:51.23\] But I believe you that there's so much low-hanging fruit... It's gotta be fun, because low-hanging fruit is the best. It's easy to pick, it has the biggest impact... It's the funnest moment. It's like, I can make huge advancements with not very much effort. |
**Steve Yegge:** There's been magic times... I've witnessed -- and I've rarely been in one myself, but I see them. Like, Borland in the '90s - they were the kings of programming languages compilers. And it was a magical time, because all the best compiler writers in the world... Not all, but probably a big chunk of the... |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, I'm excited. I don't even work there, but just the fact that y'all are doing this... And you're not the only ones doing it. I mean, there's people innovating... There's tons of excitement right now. |
**Steve Yegge:** Yeah. I love it. |
**Jerod Santo:** And it's gonna be goodness coming out on the other side for everybody, so... That's exciting. Anything else we didn't ask you? You're like "Man, I've been waiting an hour and a half for these guys to ask this question, but they're... They're too dense. They didn't even think about it." |
**Steve Yegge:** No, this has been a lot of fun. I love that you guys let me tell us some of these crazy old Amazon stories... |
**Jerod Santo:** Did we miss any? Are there any other stories where you haven't told them yet, and you're like "I'll just shove this one in at the end?" I'm here for it. |
**Steve Yegge:** Oh, gosh. Yeah, let's see if I can find a good Amazon story. You know, I've made Jeff actually laugh. You've all heard Jeff Bezos' laugh, right? "Ha-ha-ha-haaa!" That's actually curated, of course... It's part of his brand image... |
**Jerod Santo:** Is it part of his thing? |
**Steve Yegge:** Yeah. Because I've made him giggle. |
**Jerod Santo:** Oh, he has a giggle. \[laughter\] Oh, nice. So that's breaking news... |
**Steve Yegge:** It sure is. |
**Jerod Santo:** If you had a soundbite of that, you can put it against that picture of him with his shirt off... You know, the one that's popular now, where he's all ripped and jacked... And you could have just him giggling to counteract that. |
**Steve Yegge:** I actually remember the joke where I made him laugh, too. I was in a meeting with Jeff and 40 or 50 people. It was all of his leadership. And I was giving a presentation, and I stopped, and I said "Let's talk about the elephant in the room." And suddenly, everybody was staring at me, including Jeff. An... |
**Jerod Santo:** Nice. |
**Steve Yegge:** Winging it... |
**Jerod Santo:** Just winging it. |
**Steve Yegge:** Yeah. So yeah, I don't know... I could probably pour more customer stories of people who got completely screwed, but... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] That could be its own podcast; it's almost like that could be a recurring podcast. |
**Steve Yegge:** It totally could. I think somebody should, to be honest... I mean, somebody from ex Amazon. Because there are so many stories that are just going to be lost to the annals of time, that would just be wonderful to share about things that can go wrong, that are just unexpectedly, like, almost emergent bug... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[01:25:56.16\] We've imagined a podcast of post mortems, where everybody can learn from the mistakes of everybody else after an incident, or after something happens... And it's always kind of been stuck at "Well, who wants to come on the air and like air their dirty laundry of these post mortems. |
**Steve Yegge:** They don't. You know what, I tried to do that at Grab when I first got there. They had a horrible outage, because of Etcd. It had a huge meltdown, and it's terrible to restart... And Grab didn't know how their service dependency graph -- they had circular dependencies, and they didn't know how to resta... |
**Jerod Santo:** Oh, my goodness... |
**Steve Yegge:** Yeah, I could tell you all kinds of Grab stories. When Grab makes changes, people kind of through bricks through their windows. |
**Jerod Santo:** Oh, my goodness. |
**Steve Yegge:** Yeah, very different -- |
**Jerod Santo:** That's high stakes. |
**Steve Yegge:** So they were like "We should do a post mortem and tell everybody what happened here." And so I wrote a really good, entertaining, funny, post mortem about what happened with Etcd, and the history of how we were trying to diagnose it... I was ready to publish, and they were very uncomfortable with it. A... |
Partly an Asian thing, but also partly a people thing... There are definitely tech culture differences that we butted up against from the Westerners, as the outsiders. |
**Jerod Santo:** Sure. |
**Steve Yegge:** And they're not big on vocal self-criticism. That's a core value at Amazon, and is an anti-pattern in Asia. Do not be vocally self-critical. And I was basically being vocally self-critical with this post mortem post, and they were like "No." |
**Jerod Santo:** Not doing it. |
**Steve Yegge:** So we never learned the lesson. This is a problem. This is just like the problem of genomics and medicines. They can't make good medicines, because they can't get trial data, because of privacy. It's always a data problem lurking in the back here. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, I have one more question about Cody. You've got a couple -- I think this might be one of the... Yeah, this is the second episode. I couldn't find episode one. "Cody is cheating." This is from "Cody is cheating." Why don't you explain this to me? Because you said "In this episode, I'll explain ... |
**Jerod Santo:** What's the deal with the moat? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** "How exactly Cody is differentiated", this is what you say, "over all the other coding assistants." And you said, "Hey, they're going to be here. They're not going to go away. They're inevitable." And you go on to say "including Copilot and why we will always be the leader." Those are strong words. ... |
**Steve Yegge:** The "soon enough"? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, the soon enough. You say you're so far ahead... |
**Steve Yegge:** Software does take time to build, so you're gonna see us iterate towards this... But what I was talking about here is -- it's funny, it's sitting in a tab right next to the one that I'm in right now. It's a 1000-page research paper that just got published on the intersection of knowledge, graphs and LL... |
\[01:29:49.26\] So Sourcegraph tackled an extremely difficult problem. Quinn and Beyang went after what I wanted to do when I was back at Google, which was to offer grok and code search to the world. And Quinn and Beyang did it. And kudos and respect, because they had to handle all the enterprise scaling, and all the b... |
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