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[1794.56 --> 1801.12] r&d yeah you know with with the addition of grants coming in that covers our rd costs because we align |
[1801.12 --> 1809.44] those tasks with r and d and auditing is important because it keeps our security team fresh and we're |
[1809.44 --> 1815.04] helping the ecosystem arguably with important projects that people are using by auditing them of |
[1815.04 --> 1822.88] course neither of those is that you know exponential curve that everybody is dreaming about and i think that the |
[1822.88 --> 1832.08] the long play for crab nebula is in the services of distributing solving this signing problem one way or the other |
[1832.64 --> 1841.68] and providing tools that bring joy to the act of development of software again you know and i think that what we're |
[1841.68 --> 1851.44] already seeing inside the team is we are generally very dissatisfied with products out on the market it's hard for us to find stuff that |
[1851.44 --> 1859.44] ticks all the boxes and there are a couple things that we are building internally that we might just spin off into a product |
[1859.44 --> 1867.68] itself just here you go world buy a seat have fun because i think that the benefit of working with all of these fantastic |
[1867.68 --> 1876.40] fantastic people is the perspectives that you get when you're analyzing a problem field and and seeing |
[1876.40 --> 1882.88] all of the the different ways in which people are criticizing things like oh the security is crap oh the layout |
[1882.88 --> 1892.48] so is this bootstrap 2.0 you know and it's a challenge to reel people in to say okay love we're not going to build that |
[1892.48 --> 1897.28] product right now we're going to solve our own problems on our own time but right now what we are |
[1897.28 --> 1904.40] building are these dev tools and building out the platform because those are the things that will scale |
[1904.96 --> 1915.44] especially once you consider that the mechanism for bundling signing and distributing it's kind of the same no |
[1915.44 --> 1922.32] matter what platform you're using you know if it's react native or it's electron or it's any any of the |
[1922.32 --> 1931.84] other competitors or competing systems to towering i guess is still just a bundle and a sign and a ship |
[1931.84 --> 1939.60] so that move there allows us to also become more than just the towering company i think that that's |
[1939.60 --> 1945.52] you know that's a risk that we identified really early and as a matter of fact it would technically be |
[1945.52 --> 1951.76] prevented by the statutes of the open source community no one entity can profit exclusively from |
[1952.48 --> 1958.00] towering itself we cannot be the towering company but we can be a towering company we can maybe be |
[1958.00 --> 1962.96] the best towering company but we can't be the only towering company and we are starting to see people |
[1963.76 --> 1971.12] start building their products around towering as well so so if you created a platform for towering you |
[1971.12 --> 1976.24] would desire other platforms for towering is that what you're saying like if you were like the app store for |
[1976.24 --> 1981.04] towering apps that did all the bundling and signing and whatever else is involved and allowed you to |
[1981.04 --> 1987.76] distribute your software to users crab nebula you're not going to be the next apple in that regard is |
[1987.76 --> 1991.68] that what you're saying like the open source bylaws make it so you you can't be that because i mean |
[1992.24 --> 1998.96] given your 100 success we would end up in the same place with we put you in the list we'd be like oh man |
[1998.96 --> 2004.80] microsoft and and apple and crab nebula like they're all like we would just add you to the list wouldn't we |
[2004.80 --> 2012.56] okay maybe maybe the ambition is a little bigger maybe the ambition is more to say that the the towering |
[2012.56 --> 2018.00] framework itself would be more aligned with something like javascript it's not a product towering is not a |
[2018.00 --> 2025.52] product in and of itself it's a way to get stuff done like javascript like php like ruby and we would |
[2025.52 --> 2033.36] like to consider ourselves as the people pushing that ecosystem forward and developing on top of it |
[2033.36 --> 2039.60] but we are not towering because towering can't be a product it can't monetizing open source for me |
[2040.48 --> 2047.52] is go ahead go off go ahead it's one of the scary parts about this no like i have a lot of friends in |
[2047.52 --> 2051.36] the industry and i don't want to piss anybody off but i really hate it when licenses get changed or what |
[2051.36 --> 2058.32] communities break down or when you know corporate interest and greed suddenly redefines community |
[2059.12 --> 2064.64] and then you find out what it is behind the community you find out oh it was the money |
[2064.64 --> 2071.36] behind the community if crab nebula and it's a startup right like startups have a gradient of |
[2071.36 --> 2078.48] potential success if crab nebula goes down it would suck for crab nebula towering can continue |
[2078.48 --> 2083.04] kind of right and i think that that's this kind of well i mean if you're funding some of the core |
[2083.04 --> 2088.32] team members and you're a a major financier behind the scenes of making things happen then obviously |
[2088.32 --> 2094.00] the economics of supporting it change you're right in the fact that it can continue but it you know |
[2094.00 --> 2100.24] it's financially stabilized to some degree by the success and the angels that you've you've mentioned so |
[2100.24 --> 2103.12] there is no way to completely remove yourself up from that so i'm not saying that's a |
[2103.68 --> 2107.76] strike against you it's just the truth i i i want to agree with you in principle |
[2107.76 --> 2115.68] but i'm not going you should you should because i'm right i i mean i know i know you're right for |
[2115.68 --> 2119.68] you and from where you're sitting no from from where you're sitting i think it makes a lot of |
[2119.68 --> 2126.32] sense but the point i was trying to make was and this is something i'm working with the the whole |
[2126.32 --> 2131.36] working group on and it's not something that's done in software very often i mean look at ecma script |
[2131.36 --> 2137.44] 2022 it's never ending it's going to be typescript someday the point is i think at some point we |
[2137.44 --> 2143.84] can actually declare tower is done i'm not saying kubernetes done but done enough so that all you have |
[2143.84 --> 2148.32] to do is add little things and there's little bits of maintenance but done done to the point where the |
[2148.32 --> 2155.04] features have been completed and maybe that's the point in time where we get to start thinking about |
[2155.04 --> 2160.96] other stuff we'd like to build i don't know like a browser come on that's too much work is it |
[2160.96 --> 2166.88] if we lay the groundwork for that over time it might i don't know i'm not trying to get ahead |
[2166.88 --> 2171.20] of myself but i we have opinions we just shared our opinions on this do you listen our show often |
[2171.20 --> 2176.88] daniel by any chance i do i do we just went off on this we just went on like what we want in browsers |
[2176.88 --> 2182.08] me jared and nick on our talk show gino and friends so we were just like knee deep in this so |
[2182.08 --> 2187.20] we're just talking about an open source browser right that would be amazing so you're teasing us here but |
[2187.20 --> 2194.16] i mean yeah towery being done when the underlying platforms the deploy targets of towery are never |
[2194.16 --> 2201.04] finished it seems like okay maintenance but how much of a burden is that i mean ios 17 just came out |
[2201.04 --> 2208.16] certainly as the new versions of these desktop and and mobile platforms that you're creating apps for |
[2208.16 --> 2213.12] are changing they're moving targets so towery can't be finished unless it's irrelevant but maybe you could |
[2213.12 --> 2218.24] say just major efforts are done as a matter of fact at crab nebula this week we decided we're |
[2218.24 --> 2223.60] changing research and development changing its name research development and maintenance rdm because |
[2223.60 --> 2229.20] maintenance is that it's like that part of r&d that i think people forget like let's make a brand new |
[2229.20 --> 2236.32] framework and call it new and like rage on all of the things that everyone else thinks is a good thing |
[2236.32 --> 2245.68] and no i mean right now in the rdm department we are working on a grant from nlnet together with the |
[2245.68 --> 2255.76] awesome folks over at agalia to verify that we can use servo as a web view target for towery apps |
[2256.56 --> 2263.84] with early success seems quite actually quite good already for the short time that the agalia team has |
[2263.84 --> 2270.40] taken up the helm of working on servo and it's a long future and at some point people get bored and |
[2270.40 --> 2276.08] they start having silly ideas and i'm not saying we will build a browser i'm not saying we won't |
[2276.72 --> 2282.72] i do know that it's a massive undertaking an open source browser is going to require a ton of stakeholders |
[2282.72 --> 2292.56] a ton of specialists for a very long time and hey we're not raising money right now but i think that if |
[2292.56 --> 2298.48] you were to do something like that you would definitely have to have like the entire eu behind |
[2298.48 --> 2303.04] you you'd have to have the european commission behind you you'd have to have more than just money |
[2303.04 --> 2310.64] you need the the charm and the goodwill and i mean the drive kind of comes for free because otherwise |
[2310.64 --> 2315.60] we wouldn't be talking about it but i don't know do you guys remember our first conversation when i told |
[2315.60 --> 2321.60] you i've always kind of been interested in building tools yeah and for me one of the |
[2322.64 --> 2328.64] interesting side effects about working with towery is that lucas and i started way back in the day and |
[2328.64 --> 2332.48] we thought we were going to make a better electron we haven't gotten there yet electron is better in |
[2332.48 --> 2338.08] a number of ways i'll say it here towery is better in a number of ways it's a different thing but that's |
[2338.08 --> 2343.52] what we started out to do and along the way we built a community we made a ton of friends we started a |
[2343.52 --> 2351.52] company and then we realized you know actually maybe we should expand our reach a little bit |
[2351.52 --> 2357.84] right this updater and bundler that we built it's tightly coupled to towery and then you know at crab |
[2357.84 --> 2361.84] nebula we go to conferences we went to four this year or we will have gone to four this year at one of |
[2361.84 --> 2369.76] the conferences somebody rushed the table and was like guys hey can you please upstream the bundler |
[2369.76 --> 2375.20] because i'm using dioxys and like it would be great if i could just bundle and ship that way |
[2375.92 --> 2381.04] and you know we backburnered it because we had to get the the 2.0 we had to make that push to beta |
[2381.60 --> 2388.72] but internally we are working at internally at crab nebula we are working on the proof of concept |
[2388.72 --> 2395.76] research to upstream it and make it available to other projects outside of just pure towery the most |
[2395.76 --> 2402.64] exciting one is slint because you know we found out meeting with slint they have a different target |
[2402.64 --> 2408.72] audience but they are building desktop apps and they're using our low-level libraries tau and rye |
[2408.72 --> 2415.12] so all of a sudden this like the reason why towery became so popular in the first place in my opinion |
[2415.12 --> 2422.00] is because anybody could use the front-end stack if you're react or if you're svelte or if you're |
[2422.00 --> 2429.28] solid or view or angular or choose any one of the hundreds or even rust based ones like you and |
[2429.28 --> 2434.80] dominator and all that you could use this thing that we made for you we gave everybody a gift and |
[2434.80 --> 2440.48] it was like this is great and then we were still in this issue bubble right where we were seeing |
[2440.48 --> 2446.08] problems and comparing ourselves to others and feeling like oh there's competition out there |
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