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[3158.32 --> 3165.20] yeah performance right speed if it doesn't have those things that we like ascribe to browsers it's |
[3165.20 --> 3169.52] not a browser sure and i'm not saying baseline browser features i'm saying like it would need i |
[3169.52 --> 3175.12] know you chose the differentiating factors but also i think speed performance battery use these are things |
[3175.12 --> 3179.76] that are also very important alongside privacy and security so there's a lot of things that go into |
[3179.76 --> 3186.96] making a compelling browser if we might just hop that conversation back over to towery one thing that you |
[3186.96 --> 3190.96] said it was probably 15 minutes ago now that i was like this is interesting this is a change in |
[3190.96 --> 3196.24] perspective for you when you were talking about electron and competition and cooperation and vcs and |
[3196.24 --> 3201.52] towery you said that elect you set out to make it a better electron you didn't make that you made |
[3201.52 --> 3206.64] something different and it's better than electron in some ways and it's worse than electron in some ways |
[3206.64 --> 3211.04] and i would love if you just take a few moments to draw that out for people because a lot of us |
[3211.68 --> 3216.00] daniel are still in the point where we're thinking about towery and we're just we're not as far down the |
[3216.00 --> 3219.76] line as you are and you're thinking we're thinking like should i use this or should i use electron |
[3219.76 --> 3225.52] we're thinking about tooling and so that's a very interesting thing is like just that comparison of |
[3225.52 --> 3233.60] the two coming from your mouth about what is electron better at than towery and vice versa i think just to |
[3234.24 --> 3241.12] address it i made some mistakes engaging in this idea that towery is better than electron and |
[3241.12 --> 3248.32] here's why and i even got into a twitter battle with marshall of sound where i proved that we were |
[3248.32 --> 3256.32] better in some way and after reflecting on it i think that that there's a lot of things that electron |
[3257.36 --> 3264.56] brings to the table for example you might consider it's a a bad thing but it does bring a unified |
[3264.56 --> 3272.32] web interface to the major desktop platforms it's the same interface if you look at it in windows it's |
[3272.32 --> 3277.68] going to look the same as it is on on linux so i think that that's something that we don't currently |
[3277.68 --> 3287.68] have you also get an amazing general runtime of node.js bundled with joy that can do anything basically |
[3287.68 --> 3295.52] if you can think it in js your isomorphic skills are going to come in totally handy you're going to |
[3295.52 --> 3301.76] be able to follow documentation that's been built over i mean electrons like almost because it's 10 years |
[3301.76 --> 3308.40] old now like they've been around for a while and a lot of people loved it and grew up on it and made |
[3309.04 --> 3316.08] documentation made the whole tutorials you can learn about it and and not need to step out of your |
[3316.08 --> 3320.88] comfort zone so i think that that's something those are things that that electron has going for it |
[3320.88 --> 3327.68] towery what towery has going for it are you only ship the parts of software that you need to run it |
[3327.68 --> 3335.76] you don't need to ship a generalized runtime so by doing that we can reduce the actual engine size of |
[3335.76 --> 3341.36] a towery app down to five six hundred kilobytes maybe 400 depending on how aggressive you compress |
[3341.36 --> 3348.08] towery is also like i i might get some flack for saying this like people do benchmarks and they |
[3348.08 --> 3353.04] benchmark and they compare and like oh this is a hello world electron app this is a hello world towery |
[3353.04 --> 3357.52] app and this one starts up this fast and this one starts up this fast i know which is better |
[3358.16 --> 3366.64] but ultimately what's happening under the hood what's happening inside of the the core runtime is fewer |
[3366.64 --> 3375.84] sys calls fewer memory like less memory pressure and believe it or not a quicker startup like just the |
[3375.84 --> 3384.40] time it takes to open up a large binary is like linearly longer than opening up a small one it we're |
[3384.40 --> 3392.40] talking milliseconds here i guess you could split feathers but once you start thinking at a global scale of the |
[3392.40 --> 3400.80] the trillions quadrillions of apps that are installed out on the planet do they all need to have an |
[3400.80 --> 3409.28] individual eight or 12 megabyte node.js runtime if you have 10 of them on your on your desktop not so much |
[3409.28 --> 3417.04] and and i i i'm very much convinced that as towery technology gets more it gets adapted by more and more teams |
[3417.04 --> 3427.28] it does become a financial factor once you start to consider massive traction i mean if your app is |
[3427.28 --> 3432.88] downloaded a million times a day the difference between 200 megabytes and 10 megabytes is going to |
[3432.88 --> 3439.52] mean something to somebody in your accounting team and that's just the accounting side of it the transfer |
[3439.52 --> 3447.28] of this massive bundle costs electricity where you're not in a cold fusion world yet maybe at some |
[3447.28 --> 3451.84] point it won't matter anymore and we all have our little fusion packs built into our wrist yeah but |
[3451.84 --> 3457.36] until then we have to conserve electricity we have to protect the planet and every little thing we can do |
[3457.36 --> 3462.88] is important and as like i was saying as towery grows more and more relevant and more and more widely |
[3462.88 --> 3471.44] used beyond the the fig ios and space drives out there it actually concretely positively impacts |
[3471.92 --> 3478.56] the planet now you could argue that the most performant app the most secure app is the one you |
[3478.56 --> 3483.76] don't build but i think that's a that's a red herring i think that people are going to continue to build |
[3483.76 --> 3488.72] apps and we just want to make sure that they're you know sussed out with the right tools what does |
[3488.72 --> 3496.80] towery also do better than than node.js well we can integrate very easily with third languages there's |
[3496.80 --> 3503.28] actually a dynamic library example that lets you rig towery from c plus plus like i was saying before |
[3503.28 --> 3514.08] people are building elixir bindings and python wrappers and php engine backends and that ability for |
[3514.08 --> 3521.04] your preferred piece of back end and front end to come together with the towery components working |
[3521.04 --> 3528.96] as glue is the the really compelling part of it because i'm not gonna lie i wrote a lot of javascript |
[3528.96 --> 3535.28] in my life the thing about javascript is that and it's happened to me i'd be writing something and i |
[3535.28 --> 3540.16] wasn't sure which context i was in if i'm like on the front end of i in the server wait a second how does |
[3540.16 --> 3547.52] this work again you know that that isomorphism really i i lost my place sometimes and i think that |
[3547.52 --> 3558.00] the fact that you can now use rust elixir zinc c plus plus means that that there's a lot more entry |
[3558.00 --> 3564.80] points into the system and you know combined with the fact that the work we've done on the bundler and |
[3564.80 --> 3573.52] updater is going to become more broadly available to others in the ecosystems then i would argue that |
[3573.52 --> 3582.56] the towery project itself is grown beyond itself already i think that it's it's grown to see itself |
[3582.56 --> 3588.08] as a way of supporting the much larger ecosystem that third language thing is really cool i wasn't |
[3588.08 --> 3593.44] aware of that until you told me here earlier i think that's really really interesting and i agree with |
[3593.44 --> 3599.60] you i worked early on in some isomorphic contexts i think with meteor js where i was just as lost and |
[3599.60 --> 3604.48] where was i you know that the benefit of having all javascript really was lost in the fact that i |
[3604.48 --> 3609.92] still didn't know which area of the stack i was currently coding for so i've never had a problem |
[3609.92 --> 3614.64] hopping back between javascript and a different language like contextually especially ones that aren't |
[3615.20 --> 3622.80] dramatically different anyways i always thought that the isomorphic promise was somewhat spurious or |
[3623.60 --> 3628.16] not interesting to me anyway that's a side tangent but yeah third language is really cool it definitely |
[3628.16 --> 3633.76] allows tauri to bust outside of the box that it's currently in interesting you mentioned |
[3634.40 --> 3640.56] user interface to a certain extent as an electron advantage with regards to what they provide what does |
[3640.56 --> 3646.64] tauri provide when it comes to interfaces i was kind of as i was kicking the tires i was expecting kind |
[3646.64 --> 3652.48] of more like widgets and of the things where you can just like give me a file explorer give me a this |
[3652.48 --> 3657.36] thing widget and it would provide that kind of thing it's like none of that's there so is everybody |
[3657.36 --> 3664.16] doing their own thing inside of you know you grab some tailwind css and like start from scratch or how's it |
[3664.16 --> 3672.00] work technically you're right the various ways that people can interact with tauri are it's gonna sound |
[3672.00 --> 3680.32] stupid menus menus are part of the user human interface sure taskbar applications are you know |
[3680.32 --> 3684.32] these you have a little drop down or drop up that gives you a little insight close the app totally |
[3684.32 --> 3693.04] show me the open windows the window itself the copy buffer the keyboard the mouse the pointing device |
[3693.04 --> 3700.24] potentially multi-touch the microphone the camera like those are the the things that we wanted to make |
[3700.24 --> 3708.88] sure we got right and we like we talked about at one point even making a crate for people who want |
[3708.88 --> 3716.88] to play around with those little stoplights on their mac os and we we sort of decided you know if someone |
[3716.88 --> 3720.72] from the community wants to build a plugin we'll we'll support it and actually that's what happened |
[3721.60 --> 3729.04] now a window isn't just a window you know there's transparent windows and i'm being pedantic but it's |
[3729.04 --> 3732.96] important i think there's there's transparent windows there's windows with decorations there's |
[3732.96 --> 3738.96] windows with title bars these are all like classical things that we touch the size of the window the |
[3738.96 --> 3746.00] position of the window the relationship between windows the is the window on top but what do you |
[3746.00 --> 3751.28] put inside the window right so like the way that tauri is built there's two very low level |
[3752.16 --> 3757.76] some people call it deep tech i hate that but call it low level libraries one of them is called tau |
[3757.76 --> 3764.08] and that's actually a fork of the win it project that we've added to keyboard accelerators you know |
[3764.08 --> 3772.24] the command shift plus t or whatever and menus and the windows so we can create the window and all of |
[3772.24 --> 3779.84] this touchy feely stuff with tau and then you got to put something in tau there's a number of things |
[3779.84 --> 3784.64] that we currently offer the primary one is the web view that's what everyone knows it's html css js |
[3784.64 --> 3790.96] compliant up to ecmascript 2020 unless you're on let's see and then to get the less right unless |
[3790.96 --> 3802.00] you're on like mac 10.13 because it's using safari web view and what is it using exactly it's using wk |
[3802.00 --> 3814.00] web view on mac os it's using webkit gtk on linux and it's using web view 2 on windows web view 2 i will |
[3814.00 --> 3819.04] note is based off of edge which is based off of chromium so you do get a chromium like browser |
[3819.04 --> 3827.20] experience with all of the the lovely telemetry that microsoft puts into every app the lovely |
[3827.20 --> 3834.96] telemetry yes then on mac os it's the wk web view which is locked version locked to the safari that you |
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