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[4935.02 --> 4941.34] to get maintainers paid yeah what do you know about their algorithm if you're not much you said earlier |
[4941.34 --> 4947.18] yeah that you're in rephrase it for me it's not like you're in all software a large majority of |
[4947.18 --> 4953.42] software out there i am in most i think uh javascript applications even a little bit like if if you go and |
[4953.42 --> 4958.94] type npm fund in almost any javascript application my name will be in there not everyone and it's |
[4958.94 --> 4963.90] and it might be in there for one package it might be in there for 50 but it's in there somewhere um |
[4963.90 --> 4968.30] and it might be an inconsequential piece right like i'm not trying to claim that i am an |
[4968.30 --> 4973.10] irreplaceable part of sure most javascript of even any javascript applications right it's just that |
[4973.10 --> 4978.78] i happen to be in there yeah i've uh something i've done has made life easier for somebody along the way |
[4978.78 --> 4983.66] yeah have they spoken at all ty left about their the way they distribute those funds how they |
[4983.66 --> 4987.50] weighed it talked about the specific algorithm and how they weighed it but i'm sure they i mean |
[4987.50 --> 4991.74] they've been doing it for a long time yeah um and they have their upstream conference you know |
[4991.74 --> 4997.02] last couple years um i was part of their keynote this year actually um talking about how i took over |
[4997.02 --> 5002.54] packages when a former npm author prolific author decided to kind of delete his github and |
[5003.42 --> 5008.70] quit the ecosystem so i was able to take over like a dozen or so of his very highly dependent packages |
[5008.70 --> 5013.42] so like i think that um so the specifics i don't know and i think they tweak it right i've seen the |
[5013.42 --> 5021.18] amounts change over time um i think that the the the goal like tide lift has a more kind of enterprise |
[5021.18 --> 5026.06] focused goal which is like you depend on these things and you need them to you know have a certain |
[5026.06 --> 5031.34] amount of security and responsiveness and so on and so in in turn for maintainers doing those tasks they |
[5031.34 --> 5037.66] get a portion of the money thanks.dev i don't have to do anything to get it so that's more of a like uh |
[5038.30 --> 5044.30] patronage gratitude based model right um and so in that regard you can support more maintainers |
[5044.30 --> 5047.98] because they don't have to do anything to do it but you're not necessarily getting as much out of it |
[5047.98 --> 5051.82] as you would through tideless so there's it kind of depends on your preferred approach yeah and you |
[5051.82 --> 5055.58] know if i'm talking to a company who's in a generous state of mind i would encourage them to do both |
[5055.58 --> 5062.14] have you considered sponsorware i i mean i've thought about it every time i've seen authors try it |
[5062.14 --> 5067.98] i mean i remember like i grew up in the late 80s early 90s where shareware was a big thing where |
[5067.98 --> 5071.82] all you get all these games and you could use them for free but they'd kind of bug you and be like hey |
[5071.82 --> 5077.42] if you send us five bucks we can turn off this annoying warning and you know i i appreciated the |
[5077.42 --> 5082.94] spirit of it let me like try out the software and you know but i didn't have any money as a kid so i |
[5082.94 --> 5088.78] didn't i just ignored the warning the whole time right and very rarely did i end up when i had the money |
[5088.78 --> 5093.26] get to the point where i was like sure i'll pay for this yeah you know it just kind of didn't |
[5093.26 --> 5099.66] because i kind of think of it as free so i don't know if there is some solution out there hopefully |
[5099.66 --> 5105.02] to you know the nice thing about sponsorware specifically is that i'm thinking specifically |
[5105.02 --> 5111.02] your example of enzyme and all these engineers want this feature this upgrade or whatever you know |
[5111.02 --> 5116.62] call it what it is this bit of code to be written and they work for companies like you said who |
[5116.62 --> 5121.58] could definitely afford yeah right and so you develop that in a closed source environment but |
[5121.58 --> 5126.78] available all your sponsors right and so if they're a sponsor they're already in on it and then you set |
[5126.78 --> 5131.10] a threshold if i get to this many sponsors it goes out to everyone and so they can get their early access |
[5131.10 --> 5135.74] they can afford it it's not a kid who wants to play with a toy right it's a it's a well-funded company |
[5135.74 --> 5139.98] yeah they can get access now obviously this does require you to invest because you got to build it first |
[5139.98 --> 5144.70] i think that's it it's a chicken and egg there's a there is money at the end of the i mean if it's a |
[5144.70 --> 5150.14] desirable thing there's money at the end and because it's a sponsorship it raises your baseline |
[5150.14 --> 5155.42] right because now they're a monthly sponsor i think that that would work really well if i had the sort |
[5155.42 --> 5161.90] of direct software like babble eslint webpack um i don't think it would work as well for my transitive |
[5161.90 --> 5167.26] packages which is the majority of them right i so but i think also even if i had like even if something |
[5167.26 --> 5173.98] like enzyme i think that i in order to spend the time to make something that would be compelling |
[5173.98 --> 5179.98] enough to want people to pay for early access to i'd need to be able to pay for my time and so |
[5179.98 --> 5184.70] that's the chicken and egg thing where like if i had some companies show up and be like we will pay |
[5184.70 --> 5189.42] you money for this early adapter and as you know but you have to keep it exclusive for us for six months |
[5189.42 --> 5194.94] or something yeah then i would do it because it would get it done faster than no money but yeah if but |
[5194.94 --> 5199.02] i'm not going to just do it and then like dangle it like a carrot that feels like it violates the |
[5199.02 --> 5204.86] ethos of open source to me a bit um and like i can see that that's part of the challenge right |
[5204.86 --> 5210.70] because the philosophy of open source and the reality of capitalism are contradictory but somehow |
[5210.70 --> 5217.42] we have to mesh them right because the world we're in right now how um these issues i'm assuming with |
[5218.14 --> 5223.58] uh enzyme yeah people saying hey can't upgrade this and that have you reached out to |
[5223.58 --> 5231.82] that company not just those developers but like done some proactive outreach to criers the the squeaky |
[5231.82 --> 5235.82] wheels that i did actually but can't have because you don't you can't you haven't built it i've had |
[5235.82 --> 5243.66] conversations with three or four companies um i even had a conversation with you know one or two very |
[5243.66 --> 5252.94] large you know big big alphabet letter companies and like it's just never materialized um one you know i had |
[5252.94 --> 5257.34] a company who i i met with the manager and some of their engineers and we talked about what it would |
[5257.34 --> 5263.90] take and they decided that it would take about the same amount of time to migrate to rtl and so they |
[5263.90 --> 5271.02] just did that instead and i mean that's their decision to make but if it's the same amount of time |
[5271.02 --> 5276.06] they could have done it not had to change their test code and benefited everyone and i'm like sponsor |
[5276.06 --> 5280.22] where ask i guess i would have been happy to slap companies names on there like i'm happy to |
[5280.22 --> 5285.90] show appreciation and help market somebody that's helped me do something good um but it just never |
[5285.90 --> 5289.82] worked out yeah we may be thinking about sponsor we're slightly differently so this is a model |
[5289.82 --> 5294.22] wherein you're talking about like withholding a change yes yeah yeah it's so providing that only |
[5294.22 --> 5299.18] not to not for them to advertise but for them to gain it's like early access right but then when you |
[5299.18 --> 5303.58] reach a certain threshold of of sponsors overall you're just going to put it out to everybody no matter |
[5303.58 --> 5308.54] what yeah no it's kind of like a little bit of a middle ground totally and it works it works well at |
[5308.54 --> 5314.38] least for a few people but they tend to have more product oriented open source so definitely not for |
[5314.38 --> 5318.30] your transit dependencies i thought maybe with enzyme it would be a situation where if you have a hundred |
[5318.30 --> 5322.38] engineers like hey we want this it's like well that's worth money to somebody and i think it would |
[5322.38 --> 5327.74] be like i think enzyme would be a good fit for that model it's just that like unless i have the work |
[5327.74 --> 5332.46] complete no i get it you have to invest yeah which is not the easiest you can't always do that exactly |
[5332.46 --> 5337.34] yeah totally yeah but i appreciate the creativity i mean like you got to consider all an interesting idea |
[5337.34 --> 5343.42] yeah it's a way of going about it not all of your projects are going to be funded necessarily like |
[5343.42 --> 5349.18] right you know you look at an artist or a musician or a film you know certain you have one hit and that |
[5349.18 --> 5353.50] powers the rest of your things and so maybe you have one project that's letting you work on the other ones |
[5353.50 --> 5361.66] can you lay out your open source income streams like what they are sponsors open collective like |
[5361.66 --> 5367.58] how do you structure it how do you how does it come into your yeah so i have a sponsor for my personal |
[5367.58 --> 5374.22] account i have one for uh and then i have an open collective for two of the github orgs that i also |
[5374.22 --> 5379.18] have hooked up through open sponsor through github sponsors on uh through that open collective |
[5379.74 --> 5387.42] i'm on thanks.dev i'm on tidelift i'm on stackade.us um i think that's it but like i'm pretty much willing |
[5387.42 --> 5393.42] to sign up for anything that might bring money uh it's just you know the anything that requires a |
[5393.42 --> 5399.26] heavy marketing effort for me is something that has to pay out in turn and very few of the things |
[5399.26 --> 5405.26] have yeah um i would say tide lift and github sponsors and open collective and thanks.dev in |
[5405.26 --> 5411.42] that order have been the most like lucrative first huh yes by a large margin that's good good for you |
[5411.42 --> 5417.50] yeah i like their model of the dependencies of the dependencies because yeah all too often do you |
[5417.50 --> 5424.22] have a great as you mentioned influencer not saying that these people have been but like sean webpack |
[5424.22 --> 5431.58] etc like these things have been they've been great at um promoting the project and getting the you know |
[5431.58 --> 5436.70] getting the awareness but they're also sitting on top of the other shoulders of other folks that right |
[5436.70 --> 5442.86] it's not filtering too and there's there's there's not enough money even coming into webpack let's say |
[5442.86 --> 5448.38] for webpack to compensate its own developers and also to significantly compensate its entire debt |
[5448.38 --> 5453.82] graph if there was i would hope that they would do it but like there just isn't and i know that |
[5453.82 --> 5457.82] that's the case for babble that babble has barely to either i mean exactly i mean you're all sort of |
[5457.82 --> 5462.94] fighting for the same customer basically in a way exactly right yeah what a problem it's a hard problem |
[5462.94 --> 5469.18] to solve wow yeah well i'm happy to hear that you know 20 year old single jordan could at least do |
[5469.18 --> 5473.50] this so that means you're it's encouraging that's actually better than most people are doing right |
[5473.50 --> 5477.10] but a lot of us are out there getting our eight bucks a month from our sponsors and that's it exactly |
[5477.10 --> 5483.18] right but but it is worth noting that it takes such an outsized level of reach yes to get to that point |
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