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[4377.34 --> 4381.58] don't maintain your infrastructure it's going to crumble and fall apart and then there goes your company |
[4381.58 --> 4389.42] so when we go back to your packages and talk about the most supported yeah and then the most used |
[4390.54 --> 4396.94] those are different right yeah why is the most used not the most supported uh um i think part of |
[4396.94 --> 4403.18] that is because most of my packages are end up being people's transitive dependencies so like i'm |
[4403.18 --> 4407.66] most of my stuff isn't like babble or eslint or webpack where people are choosing it right most of my |
[4407.66 --> 4413.02] stuff is chosen by the maintainers of those packages or three or four levels deep right and so |
[4413.02 --> 4417.82] even though my code is in almost every application on the planet like the number of people that have |
[4417.82 --> 4426.06] chosen me is very small right and so i think that's a big part of it uh i think also that the the specific |
[4426.06 --> 4431.18] organizations that have chosen to give back are just going to always use some subset of what's out there |
[4431.18 --> 4436.46] and so it's i what i'm seeing i think is that the ones that are most supported just happen to be in |
[4436.46 --> 4440.70] that subset subset like i don't know if there's a good rationale for it yeah it might just be the way |
[4440.70 --> 4447.18] it is i kind of see if it is like a movie and you have your scarlett johansson and then you have your |
[4447.18 --> 4451.90] audio engineer yeah and it's like they're both crucial right and maybe she knows that this is the |
[4451.90 --> 4457.10] best audio engineer in the world and so he's coming with me or whatever yeah but the studio doesn't |
[4457.10 --> 4461.66] and i think that's exactly right like when everyone watches the you know the academy awards or whatever |
[4462.06 --> 4466.30] everyone pays real close attention to the best actor or actress but they don't pay as much attention to |
[4466.30 --> 4471.18] like the best sound guy or the best costume person or whatever even though the industry knows that |
[4471.18 --> 4474.70] those are the best people and really wants to hire them in fact even at the oscars i think they have |
[4474.70 --> 4479.10] like the engineering style oscars have their own separate banquet exactly the day before or whatever |
[4479.10 --> 4483.18] because they know that's not what people want to watch yeah right so it's kind of that same problem in a |
[4483.18 --> 4487.02] different in a different situation but the the crucial difference here though is that that's |
[4487.02 --> 4493.50] a business an industry and they the money that comes in from the actors the well-known faces |
[4494.06 --> 4498.94] does in fact filter back to all the people who support it but in open source no one's paying |
[4498.94 --> 4503.34] any money for the software so there's nothing to filter back to all those transitive authors which |
[4503.34 --> 4509.02] is in fact why i really like sites like tidelift and thanks.dev they are the ones like get up sponsors |
[4509.02 --> 4515.42] and open collective and so on are great but tidelift and thanks.dev really focus on kind of surfacing and |
[4515.42 --> 4520.14] filtering the money through to all the transitive dependencies so folks like me who are the |
[4520.14 --> 4524.94] backbone of all of these projects actually get see some of that support whereas with github sponsors |
[4525.66 --> 4530.70] you know people don't know who i am to go click on me and support myself right how can we get you more |
[4530.70 --> 4536.54] well known to the people that use you via transient dependencies like why why that's how can we get |
[4536.54 --> 4542.30] that that visibility i wish i knew the answer to that okay um that's the hard question here certainly |
[4542.30 --> 4548.38] i think part of it is is the kind of the skills that it takes to be a good engineer are very |
[4548.38 --> 4551.42] different than the skills it takes to be a good manager and they're very different from the skills |
[4551.42 --> 4555.82] that it takes to be a good influencer or promoter right these are all there's overlap but they're all |
[4555.82 --> 4561.26] distinct skill sets yeah and some people have the skill set to like go on make a twitch stream every |
[4561.26 --> 4567.98] day or write blogs you know periodically or like tweet the exact right hot takes you know and so on |
[4567.98 --> 4573.34] and and i i don't have zero of that skill but i just don't have enough of it i think to get the |
[4573.34 --> 4579.50] audience that i would need to get that visibility right um and i don't know if it's necessarily a |
[4579.50 --> 4585.58] good idea for me to assume that that's the only path i can follow um but i certainly haven't |
[4585.58 --> 4591.50] dived deep and tried to become an influencer in that right i don't know if this is our doing jared |
[4591.50 --> 4597.58] but we just had the maintainer and creator of askeenama on the podcast and one thing we kind of |
[4597.58 --> 4602.46] like did heavy-handedly at least i did and i think you agreed because i you didn't i agree that it was |
[4602.46 --> 4609.42] heavy-handed you didn't be like dude don't do that i was like hey change the audience let's make his |
[4609.42 --> 4616.30] dream to work on askeenama more full-time a reality yeah and he has a get up sponsors page we link to |
[4616.30 --> 4620.78] that that's the only conduit for which he's taking money from the community to say hey you support me |
[4620.78 --> 4624.78] in this effort to do this thing and you see see the big picture but it's going to take time to get |
[4624.78 --> 4633.34] there yeah we added two if if the number uptick is our doing yeah we added two from seven to nine |
[4633.34 --> 4640.62] that's great is that great well so it's it's great in relative terms because so it's sort of like |
[4641.42 --> 4646.38] if you have someone starving and you give them a tiny piece of bread it's great for them it's not |
[4646.38 --> 4651.42] enough it's not sufficient it shouldn't be great it's the right direction yes it's the right it didn't |
[4651.42 --> 4656.94] go from seven to five right exactly like and we're taking it back and seven to nine like that is that is |
[4656.94 --> 4662.70] great it's just nowhere near sufficient yeah exactly and so like every if i happen to get a new sponsor from |
[4662.70 --> 4667.66] from this you know conversation that's awesome it's just like it's not one new sponsor that's |
[4667.66 --> 4674.70] going to move the needle right you know if enough people do it it will matter i i think that the folks |
[4674.70 --> 4680.30] that should be paying you probably are profitable corporations that leverage the dependencies for |
[4680.30 --> 4686.06] which you are a transit dependency of yeah right like i agree it's not truly the listeners but the |
[4686.06 --> 4691.02] listeners for which they have influence at the place they they operate at and have you as a dependency |
[4691.02 --> 4696.30] in their graph when people ask me about that's what i think our request is is like examine that |
[4696.30 --> 4702.30] be aware of it because if not yeah what will happen to you if you if if this doesn't change in the next |
[4702.30 --> 4707.18] year or whatever time frame like how does that change how you operate in open source yeah i mean |
[4707.90 --> 4711.50] before i get to your question i was just like i think when somebody sponsors me or they they ask hey |
[4711.50 --> 4715.82] can i sponsor you i'm always appreciative i say yes of course thank you it really means a lot it's |
[4715.82 --> 4721.10] validation for me right even if it's a dollar it's still that somebody like cares enough right to vote |
[4721.10 --> 4726.14] with their wallet that matters however if you really want to help go tell your employer right |
[4726.14 --> 4731.02] right because once you get a company starting to put money into these sorts of things it the the |
[4731.02 --> 4736.30] incremental difference to putting more money in is so small but it's like that first getting through |
[4736.30 --> 4740.78] all the boilerplate of getting the finances approved and getting the money like pipeline hooked up |
[4740.78 --> 4745.58] like that's a pain in the butt but once you've got that hooked up you can add more money you can |
[4745.58 --> 4749.98] pay different people like it becomes a much more permanent thing yeah um and so that's what i'd like |
[4749.98 --> 4754.70] to see and then so your question is if this doesn't change fast enough what will happen well i'm going to |
[4754.70 --> 4760.62] have to keep getting jobs that aren't full-time open source and keep trying to squeeze it in and as a |
[4760.62 --> 4767.90] result like some of the things i really want to or need to work on are going to keep falling by the wayside |
[4767.90 --> 4772.78] i mean there are specific tasks large tasks that i have wanted to do for years and have not had the |
[4772.78 --> 4779.18] time to do it yeah um i'm the maintainer of enzyme and we don't support react 17 or 18 yet because i've |
[4779.18 --> 4785.50] been the only maintainer on it for seven years and i haven't had time to like set aside a whole month or |
[4785.50 --> 4793.66] two to do it and but i've had a hundred employees of companies post on the repo saying this is blocking us |
[4793.66 --> 4798.86] we're gonna have to spend a whole like developer month to like migrate our test suite to rtl or |
[4798.86 --> 4805.18] something it's like well have your developers help me fix it and like not one company has actually put |
[4805.18 --> 4811.98] money or time towards this problem it could have been solved four years ago and but it's still not |
[4811.98 --> 4817.98] solved because i'm not i can justify taking a few hours or a day to work on something i cannot set aside |
[4817.98 --> 4823.26] all income for a month yeah like that's just not real that's a non-starter that's uncalled for will |
[4823.26 --> 4831.26] you quit will you ever break i hope not i haven't yet how long you've been doing it um i i mean i have |
[4831.26 --> 4838.06] an unbroken github streak dating back to 2014 so what does that mean like i've done i've committed and or |
[4838.06 --> 4847.10] reviewed code uh and or merged code uh every day since 2014 yeah that's that's an amazing it's a long time |
[4847.10 --> 4851.42] yeah are you sure you're not a robot doing it for you i mean no it's i mean and it's it's it's a it's |
[4851.42 --> 4855.74] a system that's incredibly easy to game and cheat right yeah so it's for me it's more of more of like |
[4855.74 --> 4861.50] a it's a personal meditative thing yeah where it's like some days i do a lot but most days i'm just kind |
[4861.50 --> 4867.82] of checking in i do a few few updates i triage some things i move on right and it's it's the way i kind |
[4867.82 --> 4874.86] of yeah myself regular very regular 2014 man you're coming up on a decade that's a ways a couple years |
[4874.86 --> 4879.66] back github made these 3d prints of your contribution graph for a specific year and |
[4879.66 --> 4885.02] they mailed it out to select maintainers and i went ahead and went on the site that's like skyline.github.com |
[4885.02 --> 4890.22] or something and you can download them for any year and so i have a whole city now of my entire streak |
[4890.78 --> 4896.22] that's on my desk it looks really cool send us a picture that i want to see we'll include that in |
[4896.22 --> 4901.50] the show that's spectacular that is cool so thanks.dev is cool because they're actually |
[4901.50 --> 4906.78] general tell us what they do they generate where you send your money to based on your |
[4906.78 --> 4911.50] dependency yeah so both tide lift and thanks.dev right they um you give them your your lock file |
[4911.50 --> 4916.86] your manifest right and then they figure out your entire dependency graph and then you just put money |
[4916.86 --> 4922.94] in and then they distribute it out and thanks.dev gives you some granular control about like how deep |
[4922.94 --> 4928.30] you can go which probably appeals to some but like actually hurts me because i'm towards the bottom of |
[4928.30 --> 4935.02] that graph but like nonetheless the um it's good to have more competition out there more sites trying |
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