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**Autumn Nash:** It's just crazy, because it's "Did we learn nothing from y2k?" |
**Justin Garrison:** y2k brings back so many memories, and I imagine a lot of people writing software on these systems now did not live through y2k. |
**Autumn Nash:** You've made the best face... You were like "Ah...!" |
**Justin Garrison:** No, I've made me feel so old, because I just met someone recently, and we were talking all sorts of stuff, and I was like "Wait a minute, when were you born?" and they said 2002. And I was just like "Oh, my gosh..." |
**Autumn Nash:** Dude, my brother and all his friends - oh, my God; they were born in like the 2000s. He's like 20. And it just blows my mind, how can you be that old, and you were born in the 2000s? I'm just like "How?!" |
**Justin Garrison:** Yeah, and they don't remember the 1900s. |
**Autumn Nash:** Don't say it like that...! You made it sound so old, Justin. Why...?! |
**Justin Garrison:** I think you just aged immediately when I said that. |
**Autumn Nash:** \[laughs\] I felt literal pain. I was like "Why...?!" |
**Justin Garrison:** "My back hurts now. What happened?" |
**Autumn Nash:** I think I just aged five years. Thanks, Justin. I thought we were friends. first the whole not drinking coffee thing, and now you're just making me feel old... |
**Justin Garrison:** I'm sorry... |
**Autumn Nash:** \[05:45\] Okay, my link is "Prescription orders delayed as US pharmacies grapple with national state cyber attack." So some pharmacies, including CVS, weren't able to fulfill orders, because of a cyber attack on Wednesday, February 21st. It was enterprise-wide connectivity issues that forced the system... |
**Justin Garrison:** And that's really interesting too how -- like, policy; because you don't want to avoid people abusing medicine, and taking too much, or whatever... So you write a policy that says "Okay, you should be able to do this thing within this amount of time." And you don't understand how other things might... |
**Autumn Nash:** And it's wild... I think we've been trying for a month and a half to get my kids ADHD medicine. I know a mom who went to three different pharmacies and couldn't find it. And then on top of that, they start going down, like "How is that going to affect people that take cancer meds, or diabetes meds", or... |
It says that law enforcement this week dealt a heavy blow to \[unintelligible 00:08:14.12\] lock built ransom group... But there are still plenty of ransomware operators still earning millions of dollars. That's crazy. That's a business. You know what I mean? You don't think of that. It's not just some dude that took i... |
**Justin Garrison:** If you've never read the book Spam Nation, it's a fantastic read about the spam industry, mostly around drugs and prescriptions that aren't legitimate, because of these sorts of stresses, of like "I need to get my meds. I have to survive on this thing." Whether that's -- |
**Autumn Nash:** It makes me so sad that people are put in that situation, you know? |
**Justin Garrison:** Absolutely. The amount of stress that it must involve. And then you get an email that says "Hey, I can get you your meds for a discounted price. You don't need a doctor. All that other process and things that you have to go through, we could just skip all that." And that boomed spam, in a lot of wa... |
**Autumn Nash:** Not just that, but it makes me sad, because how many older people are -- they say that people are eating, or not eating... I think there's a documentary, people were eating cat food, because they were saying that their meds were so expensive, and people were trying to get it from Canada, and from other... |
**Justin Garrison:** Yeah, the fixed income for a lot of people is a super - like, you have to know exactly where every dollar is going, and what you can and can't afford... |
**Autumn Nash:** \[09:54\] I remember when I was pregnant with my son, I was so sick... And there was a medicine, it was the only FDA Medicine approved for morning sickness that wouldn't cause a miscarriage... And it was $700. But it was literally B6 and Unisom, which is like you could mix it at Target for like 12 buck... |
**Justin Garrison:** Now I'm sad. \[laughter\] |
**Autumn Nash:** It is sad. I don't want old people not taking their medicine, and worrying about food... I hope that we do take this kind of stuff into consideration... |
**Justin Garrison:** And I do find -- there was just recently, I didn't put it as a link here to this week, but the White House is like "We need to write memory-safe languages." They want people to write Rust. |
**Autumn Nash:** I thought that was so interesting, that actually the White House was getting into software in that way... And I thought that was really cool, because -- which is also kind of crazy, because I feel like a lot of government entities have really old languages, and software... So I thought that was interes... |
**Justin Garrison:** Of everyone telling me what software to write, or what language to pick, I would not expect it to be a government \[unintelligible 00:11:11.17\] |
**Autumn Nash:** Exactly. The people that still use COBOL. |
**Justin Garrison:** "Yeah, maybe this old language isn't -- this Fortran is kind of long in the tooth. Let's just leave everything else and say "What should we do?" And yeah, memory-safe languages, maybe -- it can protect against certain things, but it's not gonna protect everything. But it's like "Hey, if this protec... |
**Autumn Nash:** But just like if you're going to build military applications, or government applications, it is better for it to be more stable. And I'm glad that they're taking those things into consideration, and they're wanting to build them better... And I know, just being married to someone in the military for so... |
**Justin Garrison:** Cool. Well, let's jump into the interview with Chris, and talk all about security for open source, because that kind of ties into some of this as well... It's like "Hey, are you following best practices to secure your repos? And can we trust this code in any way?" And OpenSSF Scorecards is one way ... |
**Break**: \[13:17\] |
**Justin Garrison:** Alright, thank you so much, Chris Swan, for being on the show today to talk all about OpenSSF Scorecards. Chris, tell us about yourself. Where do you work, and what do you do? |
**Chris Swan:** Hi, I'm Chris Swan, I'm an engineer at Atsign, where we're building a platform for next-generation networking based on personal data services. And one of my focuses there is on how we show that we care about security. That's why we ended up implementing Scorecards, which I guess is what we're here to ta... |
**Justin Garrison:** The way you phrased that makes me very -- how we show that we're interested in security, or care about security... Immediately, my head thinks of security theater, where "Hey, there's a thing that we have to do for a checklist that doesn't really matter." But I know that's different than what you'r... |
**Chris Swan:** OpenSSF is the Open Source Security Foundation. It's a thing inside of the Linux Foundation, so it sort of sits alongside of the CNCF as one of the projects there. |
**Justin Garrison:** So it's its own foundation. And what does it focus on? What's the purpose of a new foundation that is open security? |
**Chris Swan:** So it focuses on securing the supply chain. It seems to have had a lot of initial energy, at least from Google... So we first kind of came across Scorecard when Dart and Flutter implemented Scorecards on their GitHub repos, and they did a blog post about why they've done that... And we saw that and thou... |
**Justin Garrison:** So what exactly is a scorecard then? Is that a report card on my Git commits? Is this a badge that I put in my banner of my readme? What is it? |
**Chris Swan:** So it is ultimately a badge that you put in the banner of the readme, and it has sort of a colored element to it... So as the score gets better, it goes from sort of red, to yellow, to shades of green... So once you get a score of eight or better, it's a nice, bright green scorecard. If you click on the... |
**Autumn Nash:** You know what's really interesting? I was reading this article, and it said "Gamifying parts of your development process", like pipelines or different ways of writing good code and showing developers that they write good code, and that they've done something... I don't know if it's all because we love ... |
**Chris Swan:** Yeah, it certainly does do that. And yeah, once we started putting all of our scorecards together on a table, then it made me want to make sure that they were all at least green. But then that gets you into the hole -- it's about 20% of the effort to get 80% of the score... So it's relatively easy to ge... |
**Autumn Nash:** But honestly, if people were 80% more secure on a bunch of Git repos, especially with open source, because so many people are then inheriting your either good or bad... You know what I mean? So I think even if everybody was at 80%, and just the getting it green motivated people that way... Security is ... |
**Chris Swan:** \[21:55\] It would. And there was a paper out a couple of months back where they looked at sort of the top 20 open source projects by popularity, and ran Scorecard against them. I think basically none of them had a scorecard in the repo, but anybody can run the tool against any repo. |
**Autumn Nash:** Oh, that's interesting, because if you were going to build something and you wanted to look at "Hey, is this secure enough for me to build my application on top of it, or build it into my application?", and then the fact that you can apply a scorecard to another repo... That's actually really interesti... |
**Chris Swan:** It is. I think if you're able to choose between, let's say TLS implementations, then you might very well decide "Yeah, this is the TLS implementation I'm gonna go for, because I can see that the people building this have done the things that show that they care about security", as opposed to another one... |
**Justin Garrison:** And by making this a number or a color... I'm Red/Green colorblind, so those probably wouldn't matter to me as much... But seeing a number of like "You got an 8 out of 10", it kind of boils down all the complexity of "Hey, are you doing the best practices things? Are you doing the things that we kn... |
**Chris Swan:** Yeah. And I think where people are implementing it, you never see a red badge. As soon as somebody has kind of made the commitment to put a scorecard on their repo, they've probably also made the commitment to try and make that score at least decent. So generally, you're seeing sort of yellow and better... |
**Justin Garrison:** It could be a good deterrent. You're just like "You know what - this is an experiment. Don't use this yet. It is red." |
**Chris Swan:** Yeah. |
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