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But yeah, for something like my personal repos, where I'm just like "Actually, I don't think I want to pin this, because I'm okay if it breaks. I don't have an SLA, and I'm not getting paid for this code. It's just me to experiment and learn and put something out there to share." That is okay to not have a scorecard. |
**Autumn Nash:** See, I think I'm almost the opposite. I'm like "I want to put this on everything, so then I can learn --" You know, I just love reading about security and post mortems, but then now I'm just like "I can actually figure out how all these things work in context." When you get to work in software, you wor... |
**Chris Swan:** I have been archiving a whole bunch of my repos, because I just got sick of the maintenance. And I think it becomes one of those things of you have to be conscious about "These are the active projects, and I'm actually going to keep on going with the toil on them. And these are the ones where it was int... |
**Justin Garrison:** \[50:10\] It closes issues, it closes all that, yeah. It's just like to say "Hey, if you really like this, you're welcome to the thing that I created." I'm reading the book "Working in public" right now. I'm almost through with it, and one of the things that they point out in there which I find rea... |
**Autumn Nash:** It's also part of the culture of software though, because we're always like -- this is the only job that you do your job for fun on the weekends. You know what I mean? It's just expected that you build projects all weekend, and that you're constantly -- like, how many people have bought domains, create... |
**Justin Garrison:** But it's not just software though, right? Because I thought I was gonna be a mechanic my entire life. I love cars. I was working on cars, and I would work on cars on the weekend. I would go -- I'd get paid to work on cars, and then I'd go home and I'd work on cars. And that's what I liked doing. Bu... |
**Autumn Nash:** Some people definitely make it a competition. Some people -- |
**Justin Garrison:** Absolutely. There's lots of negatives and consumerism in that, but also, for me - I like how my house looks when it's decorated. And I'm going to spend a day or half a day decorating my house. And then anyone that drives by, it's free for them to look at. They can come -- I want them to come drive ... |
\[54:08\] It's just like a different mindset of how we treat open source. And in this case, a scorecard gives them the visibility, like "I care about this thing." I'm gonna do enough to provide this information to you of "Here's the basics, and we do care about this. We're going to try to improve it, or at least keep m... |
**Autumn Nash:** I think it's also such a cool learning opportunity, and a way for new people to get in. It's so cool that you're solving multiple problems; you're solving the problem of better security, and giving that visibility and credit to motivate people to have better security... But you're also kind of allowing... |
**Chris Swan:** Yeah. And I think the other thing I'd throw in here is, as I've come to know some people in OpenSSF and the community around it, they're just super-helpful, lovely folk, that are really interested in raising all the ships. So I think some parts of communities get a bad rap, but most of the ones that I h... |
**Justin Garrison:** So if someone wants to get involved, where do they start? |
**Chris Swan:** I would suggest start at OpenSSF.org. They can see Scorecards as one of the projects there, and that'll take them into the Scorecards mini site, and that's kind of got a guide on how to implement it, and whether you want to do sort of standalone with the command line tool, or go to the GitHub Action and... |
**Autumn Nash:** How do you get involved with OpenSSF and the foundation? Because it sounds really cool. |
**Chris Swan:** So there's, I suppose, two different ways there. So one is formally becoming a member of OpenSSF. And that works like so many of the other Linux Foundation projects. So it's a very organizational approach, and if your organization's already a member of Linux Foundation, then there's a different price st... |
There doesn't seem to be an individual membership approach at the moment. That brings me into the sort of second area of it doesn't really matter, because it's a very open and welcoming community. So if you've got issues or PRs or other ways of contributing, the repos are there, and you can go along and do that. They d... |
**Justin Garrison:** \[57:58\] Cool. And if people want to reach out to you online, where are you available? |
**Chris Swan:** So I can be found at chris.swanz.net. And that's kind of got links to all of my social media, and LinkedIn, and GitHub, and all that kind of stuff. And so yeah, I'm pretty easy to then kind of find a route through to. And of course, in amongst that I've done a few presentations about Scorecard. It's ver... |
**Justin Garrison:** Yeah, I could see this at a large enterprise or company being very political. There's a lot of security tools, there's a lot of people that want to focus on security, and there's a lot of people that have strong opinions about security implementations. And I could see this as a starting point of if... |
**Autumn Nash:** I work with a lot of college students and military spouses learning how to code and kind of learning how to get into tech, and I wonder if Scorecards would be a nice way to teach them about securing their GitHub repos? Because I'm teaching Git classes, but I also wonder, are there any pathways for coll... |
**Chris Swan:** Oh, they're absolutely are. There's so many projects and so much work to be done... And so yeah, I'd encourage people to go and take a look there. There's new stuff happening on an almost daily basis. And of course, an awful lot of toil behind it, which needs many hands to get to the work there. The oth... |
**Justin Garrison:** And that's the general rule for most -- like, a lot of things start as toil. We do them manually, we figure out the pattern, and then we make a template from it. And then we do the template over and over again, and then we automate the template, and then we abstract the template. That's the general... |
**Chris Swan:** Safe defaults. This is normal. |
**Autumn Nash:** But it's also teaching you best practices while you go through it, so it's also a great learning opportunity at the same time. So it's even better. |
**Justin Garrison:** Especially right now, as it's changing. |
**Autumn Nash:** \[01:02:08.05\] That's what I'm saying. So much has happened in infrastructure in the last four years. It's wild how far we've come. So getting better best practices and better ways to set up your next project... I mean, there's definitely a lot of value in that, you know? |
**Justin Garrison:** Well, Chris, thank you so much for coming on the show today, and talking to us about OpenSSF Scorecards. Hopefully, anyone that's interested wants to reach out to either you, or OpenSSF, they can get involved and try out the tool. Go run it. I just ran it during this podcast, and it's super-quick, ... |
**Chris Swan:** Thanks, folks. |
**Autumn Nash:** Thanks, Chris. |
**Break**: \[01:03:02.02\] |
**Justin Garrison:** Alright, I thought that was a great interview with Chris. Thank you so much for coming on the show and telling us all about OpenSSF Scorecards. For today's outro of Ship It - I've been making new outro segments every time, and I went into a rabbit hole last week of how things got named. |
**Autumn Nash:** I just want you to know that I love your rabbit holes, and when you get excited about stuff. It makes me so happy. |
**Justin Garrison:** Well, I started reading a blog post, and then I read comments, and then I started on Wikipedia, and I went on more Wikipedia links than I have in a long time. That Wikipedia hole was deep. |
**Autumn Nash:** This is why we are the best ADHD friends. |
**Justin Garrison:** So at some point, I just started writing notes, and I'm like "Okay, what does this mean?" And then I'm like "Okay, this is a game." We're gonna play a game, Autumn, and you're gonna be the contestant, because I have all the answers. |
**Autumn Nash:** Oh, I'm so excited. |
**Justin Garrison:** And this game is called Person, Place, Thing, or Null. And we're going to talk about different technologies, and you can decide -- |
**Autumn Nash:** I love that you came up with that cool name, too. I'm so proud of you. |
**Justin Garrison:** You have to decide if this technology was named after a person, place, thing, or just made up, it wasn't any of those things, or it was like another word, or term, or something that. Null's a catch-all for the -- |
**Autumn Nash:** Well, I'm gonna suck at this game, but I'm here for it. Let's do it. |
**Justin Garrison:** It's fun. So let's talk about -- just for an example, Linux. Linux, the operating system. That was named after Linus Torvalds. Right? He created it, and he named it. Do you know where the name of Git comes from? |
**Autumn Nash:** No. |
**Justin Garrison:** It also comes from Linus. He created it. And it means a stupid person in British. Like, it's slang for like an idiot. |
**Autumn Nash:** Shut up...! |
**Justin Garrison:** And he said he named it after himself. And so Linus also created Git, and then said he named it for himself. So the name Git comes from him, maybe for himself. So it's kind of -- |
**Autumn Nash:** Do you think he really named it after himself, or do you think he was like "Look, \[unintelligible 01:10:06.08\] |
**Justin Garrison:** Whatever the case may be, he claims that he named it after himself. And that's a fun little tidbit there for people. So where does it something like the name Kubernetes come from? |
**Autumn Nash:** I don't know. I'm terrible at Kubernetes. |
**Justin Garrison:** Do you want to guess? Person, place, thing, or null? |
**Autumn Nash:** Null. |
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