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**Gareth Greenaway:** One f the nice things that's kind of baked into the idea of -- once a project is open source, it's always open source, as long as there's people there to maintain it, to keep it going. So even if a company no longer -- if they try and make a project no longer open source, the community itself can ... |
I mean, we've seen an example of that with TerraForm. HashiCorp tried to change their license, or did change their license, and then the community was like "We don't agree with that. We're going to fork and make OpenTofu." I mean, where it gets complicated is when the lawyers at HashiCorp then got involved and said "Yo... |
**Autumn Nash:** ...which is gonna get complicated, because there's only so many ways you can do things. |
**Gareth Greenaway:** Exactly. Yeah. |
**Justin Garrison:** I mean, the rebuttal to that was fire. The "No, this code was open source before you changed the license. You can't re-change this license and then come sue us." |
**Gareth Greenaway:** Yeah, exactly. |
**Autumn Nash:** \[23:45\] Yeah, that was open source too right there. I got coffee, I sat \[unintelligible 00:23:47.08\] Well, because it's gonna set a precedent, right? From now on, every time somebody goes and licenses something that was open source... These things didn't happen before, and all of a sudden, the more... |
**Gareth Greenaway:** I mean, one of the things that I've thought about since being let go from VMWare, and watching kind of the progression of what's happening with the project that I used to work on, is whether or not corporations, whether or not companies themselves should be the sole owner of a project. I mean, Jus... |
**Justin Garrison:** But I think that's a big thing you're putting out here, especially, like both the pieces that you're talking about here are like -- we could talk about Broadcom; with the open source Salt project it's like "Hey, if this gets shelved or put on maintenance mode, or doesn't get --", like, many people ... |
**Autumn Nash:** I was gonna say, that's like the littlest part of their problem. There's so many different problems there... |
**Justin Garrison:** Right. And that's the other -- the benefit of having something open source of like "Hey, I can still see this code, and I can fork it", versus "I have no access to this thing." Instead of being locked in, you're locked out. You're like "I can't do anything." And that's how compilers used to work. T... |
**Autumn Nash:** Yeah, but it's wild, though... It's wild, because you can see the way that new startups are starting to build it. They're building things that are easier to lift and shift. That was a complete -- Google Next was full of talks and different startups that were making it, for one, being able to monitor mu... |
**Justin Garrison:** Well, I mean, GCP gets some benefit about telling people multicloud is easy, right? |
**Autumn Nash:** No, no, but I mean -- |
**Justin Garrison:** As the smallest major cloud provider, they want you to come move to them. |
**Autumn Nash:** ...but people. Like, people that are a bit building these startups - that is the new solution that they are trying to... You know what I mean? And I'm not saying GCP specifically, but it seems like that is the new subject that people are trying to account for, because they're not sure what to do when i... |
**Justin Garrison:** Well, and there's new layers that have exposed -- containers was a big change; with configuration management, with infrastructure, as like "Oh, I have this portable artifact that can run in more places", and Kubernetes being the new VMware, to some extent, of like "Hey, this is portable across thes... |
\[27:53\] But going back to, Gareth, what you were saying about foundations versus companies, one of the things that I think that we are beyond the point of independent projects becoming large is because of the legal problems as well. Foundations are there to also help protect against the legal aspects of like "Oh, som... |
**Autumn Nash:** One thing that seems to be working really well is when multiple big companies join foundations to contribute. |
**Justin Garrison:** Well, that's the only way they can join a project, right? |
**Autumn Nash:** But I'm saying, it seems like they're more successful when there's multiple big voices in the room, you know? |
**Justin Garrison:** Yes. And they have to have a third party to say the same voice. The reason CNCF exists is because Google and Red Hat wanted to work on Kubernetes together. It's like, they're never gonna get their lawyers on the same page, to say "Oh, we're gonna do this together. Oh, let's just actually make a fou... |
**Autumn Nash:** But it seems like the way that we can contribute to get open source funded, and contribute to get people to work on it full-time, but also it keeps it where one company can't come and eat the entire thing. There's more of a community, or board, or maintainers have to be able to all agree on the feature... |
**Justin Garrison:** And there's problems with all those models, right? |
**Autumn Nash:** But it seems like it's the one that keeps, I don't know, power equally distributed more... Sort of. |
**Justin Garrison:** I just watched the Node.js documentary on YouTube. I know almost nothing about Node.js. I knew none of the drama, none of this stuff. And it was really about Joyent the company owned Node.js as the trademark, as the project, and they were not doing what they should have been doing to maintain that.... |
**Gareth Greenaway:** Yeah, I mean, one of the things I was thinking about when you and Autumn were just talking about some of the things around foundations... I mean, Justin, you mentioned the CN CF, and kind of the Google and Red Hat wanted to work together on Kubernetes... And without kind of a third party there, th... |
Using Google and Red Hat, for example, if they're within the same foundation - they're two massive companies. And if you have a third company, that's not as massive, they should also have an equal say in the direction of that project. It shouldn't be simply an opportunity for Google and Red Hat, or IBM, or whoever else... |
**Justin Garrison:** I don't know enough about some of the foundations to know how that's actually played out. I know with CNCF, even with Kubernetes early days -- it's 10 years old this year, and we're still ripping out stuff that's GCP-specific. There's still a lot of backend of Kubernetes that only works in Google, ... |
**Gareth Greenaway:** \[32:27\] Right. That's one of the interesting things that I've noticed over the course of my interest, my involvement in the open source community at large, is how it shifted from -- I mean, one example that I often go to is Apache. One of the most probably popular, most prevalent web servers in ... |
**Justin Garrison:** And that's just overhead. |
**Gareth Greenaway:** Just our tests. Yes, exactly. And that's not even hosting costs, that's on even like salaries... |
**Justin Garrison:** Yeah. You're not making money from that. That's just the cost of doing business. |
**Gareth Greenaway:** Exactly. |
**Justin Garrison:** As I was watching the Node.js documentary, I was thinking -- if any listeners know, I want to talk to people that run a large-ish repo, apt -- like, what's the backend of... I want to talk to them like "What are you running your web servers on?" And some people from npm, right? Like, what's the bac... |
**Gareth Greenaway:** That's one thing that is -- for longest time, if you wanted... Like, a good example, a good way to get experience, a good way to get a bullet point on your resume was contributing to an open source project. But most of those contributions were code. It was just like, your only avenue into contribu... |
**Justin Garrison:** I've talked to so many people over the years about trying to get into tech, and they're like "I need to have an open source project to show off I can code." I'm like "No, you don't." Go find a popular-ish project and go contribute to it. |
**Autumn Nash:** \[36:02\] But guys, do you think that's still a thing, though? Because people who are impressive developers are having a hard time getting jobs right now. |
**Justin Garrison:** Oh, it's not a for sure thing at all. |
**Autumn Nash:** Well, not a for sure thing, but is it still a thing? Nothing's for sure. But you know what I mean? And also, it's hard to get into open source. |
**Justin Garrison:** It takes time, for sure. |
**Autumn Nash:** Open source - not even time, but people... Like, it's hard to get people to take you seriously and to be able to find an environment where you can learn, where people are willing to let you make mistakes and to teach you, so you can get in there. You can't just magically start contributing to crazy inf... |
**Justin Garrison:** I mean, if I wanted to do woodworking, what are my options to go learn woodworking? If YouTube didn't exist, I would just go to trial and error in my garage, cutting some wood, and like "Ah, that didn't work." And I'd learn pretty much all the wrong ways to do it, and we rehash a lot of stuff. What... |
**Autumn Nash:** Do you think -- the way things are going with open source right now, would you do anything differently about your start in open source, and the amount of contributions? I'd also love to know how you got into Scale, and how you got involved... But you've contributed so much of your life to open source. ... |
**Gareth Greenaway:** Yeah, I think I probably would. I can't think of anything as far as my contributions or my involvement that I would change... One thing I wanted to say, kind of to your point, and one of the things that Justin said that I think is most important when you're looking for like how do you get involved... |
**Autumn Nash:** There are definitely some communities that are not warm and fuzzy. |
**Gareth Greenaway:** Yeah. No, for sure. For sure. And that comes down to the people that are leading those projects. I mean, there's -- the Linux Kernel is infamous for not being a necessarily welcoming community. And that stems from the top, from Linus himself. |
**Autumn Nash:** There's a lot of old, grouchy people killing the vibes of open source... But it's wild, because a person that's never been at Scale before, who's never used Kubernetes... The community at Scale and Kubernetes, and the people that I've met - I so badly want to join the SIG release team, or somehow find ... |
**Gareth Greenaway:** \[39:54\] The Kubernetes community at large is -- I think there's many subcommunities within that community at large, but I would say they are probably one of the most welcoming, friendly community out there. There was a comment that I made to a few people... I made it a couple times, it was more ... |
**Autumn Nash:** No, honestly, as someone who's never touched Kubernetes in their life, if I can find the time and if somebody had a project, I would literally contribute to it, and it would be one of the -- with all the things that I have to do, it would be something that would motivate me to still want to fit that ex... |
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