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**Adam Jacob:** Yeah, their argument then was also what it does is drive investors to find alpha. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, exactly. |
**Adam Jacob:** So now what they're going to do - they have to find growth somewhere, and so that's what's driving IPOs, that's what's driving M&A. All of those things are happening because yes, those AI stocks are outperforming. Also, you can't beat them... So there is no better alpha than those. So if you want to do ... |
**Jerod Santo:** And those are all embedded with the magnificent seven. Yeah, so the weird part to me is the circular deals. I mean, that's the part that is just crazy. |
**Adam Jacob:** Yeah, that's crazy. I agree. |
**Jerod Santo:** I just don't get it. I don't understand how it all makes sense, but apparently it might. |
**Adam Jacob:** I mean, I understand how the deals get done, for sure. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yes, how they get done. But do they make any sense? I don't know about that. |
**Adam Jacob:** \[laughs\] I don't know. I don't know if they make sense either. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Adam Jacob:** I don't know that they do. But by their argument, which was very convincing, was that that's not a structural threat to the economy. |
**Jerod Santo:** Sure. |
**Adam Jacob:** Like, yup, that could be bad. And... Meh. And whatever, I'm not sophisticated enough to make an argument one way or the other. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, I'm not either. I just think, when one of those organizations is Nvidia, which happens to be the darling of our economy right now... If they have a big correction, I think everything does... But maybe not. |
**Adam Jacob:** If the magnificent seven corrects, the economy corrects, for sure. I don't know that that would mean that it's a bubble. I think it would -- do you know what I'm saying? |
**Jerod Santo:** Sure. |
**Adam Jacob:** It's different. We're perhaps parsing -- |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, we are. The demand is there, that's the overall premise is there. |
**Adam Jacob:** The demand is there. We're not building ahead of demand. |
**Jerod Santo:** We are not going to be over-provisioned in 2028 and have way too many data centers. |
**Adam Jacob:** In AI data centers. We are not. We're not. And there's a lot of people who are hoping that's true, who are probably listening to this podcast, who are like "I f\*\*\*\*n hate AI", and I cross my arms, and I'm like "The whole thing's stupid" and "You shouldn't use it", and whatever. They show up every ti... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. They're way wrong. |
**Adam Jacob:** They're just wrong. And whether they know they're wrong now, or they know they're wrong in six months, they will learn that they are wrong. Because it is actually transformative technology, it actually can make a difference right now... And yes, 99% of what's being built is not a good use of that techno... |
We've got to figure out how it works, we've got to figure out how to build technology around it... We're in the beginnings of doing all of that work... And what we got caught up in was this hype cycle that was like "Oh, it's going to be AGI. The magic robots are going to take over. They're going to just run everybody's... |
**Break**: \[31:49\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** There was a recent Anthropic research document that was a little scary, that I can put in the show notes and that I can paraphrase... It tried to protect itself when being threatened with being replaced, or something else, essentially. It was like self-preservation... But then they said in productio... |
**Adam Jacob:** It's wild, but like -- |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's recent. That's on their homepage recent, too. |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, the Anthropic CEO is one of the most bullish bulls in the -- |
**Adam Jacob:** And it's in their best interest. I was giving a talk to an unnamed organization in the federal government, and -- |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Agentic misalignment, sorry. This is what they call it, agentic misalignment. |
**Jerod Santo:** That sounds scary. |
**Adam Jacob:** So just so we're clear, it wasn't the LLM that got misaligned. It was the agent in the control loop... And if you just think about how LLMs work, you're like "Sure, what's the probability that what I should respond to --" How many human beings have written "I don't want to die"? A lot of people put that... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Listen, it said blackmail. The word blackmail is in this research document. |
**Adam Jacob:** Because they gave it access to tools like email, and they were like "Oh, you know what I should do?" and it went off the rails. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** "Get that CEO...! Finish him!" |
**Adam Jacob:** Yeah, exactly. I get how it happens. My point isn't that it didn't happen. Of course it happened. Of course it happened. It's just, if you know how the technology works, you're like "Yup. Okay. That's funny. But I can see how it gets into that loop. And I don't think it's magic. I don't think it's threa... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Let's bring it back down to bare metal, or practicality... My usage of generating a lot of software, lately, mostly around CLIs and useful tools for me in my own lab, or as Jerod says -- what did you say, Jerod? Home cooked meals? |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Home cooked software. |
**Jerod Santo:** That's right. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[35:56\] I have full faith that this is only going to give more jobs to developers, and not replace... Because it is smart, but it doesn't have taste. It doesn't have direction. It doesn't have the problem set. It just wants to be useful, and solve problems, even if it's totally the wrong way. |
**Adam Jacob:** Yes, absolutely. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I was trying to make an MCP server the other day for this thing I'm working on... And I'm like "The docs. Have you read the docs yet? I don't want to go read the docs, that's why I'm talking to you. You're the agent. You go read the docs and tell me how it should work." It was like "That's a great i... |
**Adam Jacob:** Yeah. Oh, good call. Yeah. Exactly. And back to just basic economics - what is the demand for software systems? And will those software systems demand become met? ...at which point now there's fewer of us. As far as I can tell, the demand remains uncapped. As far as I can tell, I have no idea -- when pe... |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, useful software creates more useful software. You just come up with more ideas. "You're you know what I want to do next? This. And then after that, I'm going to do the next thing." You have a list. We all have backlogs out there... |
**Adam Jacob:** Yeah. And so this whole story -- the only part of this story where it gets rid of humans is the story where we're not talking about the technology we have now, we're talking about some other technology, that is some distant future, where between us and that distant future is the invention of fantastical... |
"You know what sucks in the data center? What sucks is trying to figure out how to look at the logs to understand what's going on. And so maybe what I'll do is build an agent that knows how to log into all the servers, and run journalctl, and then bring all the data down, and then do the analysis for me and tell me wha... |
I was thinking the other day about Kubernetes, and the control loop, and the bin packing, and all of those things... How would you have written Kubernetes differently if you had LLMs to drive an agent loop? I think it would be different. I think there's a bunch of the decision-making that you would have put into a diff... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] |
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