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**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. "Send me some stuff." |
**Adam Jacob:** "Send me junk and I'll run it for you." You'd be like "No." That's a terrible design. But it turns out with AI it's kind of a good design. And those layers are dramatic... And I think the thing that's changed for me is that now I can't look at problems without thinking "Well, where can I insert that ess... |
\[47:53\] With System Initiative - I mean, we took this UI that we had spent five years building, trying to be like "Here's a better way to compose these resources", and I just deleted it. It's just gone. Because it turns out -- |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[unintelligible 00:48:05.00\] stupid... |
**Adam Jacob:** Yeah. It turns out -- |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, smart with your knowledge, you know... |
**Adam Jacob:** It turns out that what's great is the models. What's great is that I built these one-to-one abstractions. That was awesome. But the actual way you want to work with them is just in an AI. I just want to say to Claude Code "I need to deploy Valkey to make this session thing work. Can you update the code ... |
And so the UI now is about radiating information back to you more than it is making changes. It's like "Show me the map. Show me the review. Show me the changes. Let me dive into the details and play around." But it's fundamentally altered the way I think about everything, including the last six years of my life. |
**Jerod Santo:** It had to require some humility... |
**Adam Jacob:** Oh... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] |
**Adam Jacob:** Oh, Jerod... I mean -- |
**Jerod Santo:** Take us back to that moment. Take us back... |
**Adam Jacob:** So these are Buddhist prayer beads, and I'm holding onto them, doing this while I'm talking to because of that. Because I'm just like "Oh... Oh, that was awful." |
**Jerod Santo:** You're still in PTSD from it? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I'm sorry to laugh at your pain, but it is hilarious. |
**Adam Jacob:** I'm just being honest. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I love it. |
**Adam Jacob:** It was awful, man. |
**Jerod Santo:** How far away from it are you? When did you make this decision? |
**Adam Jacob:** We started building the prototypes of working this way less than six months ago, and then shipped it maybe two months ago... So we're just in the very beginnings of trying to get people to understand "Here's what we've built, and here's how it works." And the humility runs in a bunch of different direct... |
And the people I love most are infrastructure people, and those are not the people that are highest on the AI supply train. Do you know what I mean? Those people tend to be the grumpy Luddites, who are like "Never been useful to me..." So that's also been humiliating a little bit, to go out to my people and be like "Lo... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[52:16\] For sure. |
**Adam Jacob:** But it's not what happens. |
**Jerod Santo:** You can't just manifest that, you know? |
**Adam Jacob:** You can try. |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, of course. |
**Adam Jacob:** And every now and again it does. It's every once in a while landing in a bottle, but... |
**Jerod Santo:** So that's interesting, because the infra people are some of the most resistant to the new tech. But you couldn't possibly continue building it the previous way. |
**Adam Jacob:** No. Because once you've seen it -- |
**Jerod Santo:** Because the world has changed. |
**Adam Jacob:** Yeah. It's irresponsible. I have investors, I have my own dreams and my own hopes... I wasn't building it -- my job is to try to build something great. And that's where the greatness is. So you've gotta go there. And it doesn't matter what the risks are, because you're guaranteed to lose the other way. ... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's a losing proposition. Like, this is the only way you could win. It doesn't mean you will, but at least you've got a fighting chance. |
**Adam Jacob:** Yeah. And it's so fun. You know, we built a policy engine that uses the MCP server to let you write policy and Markdown that describes "Hey, check my infrastructure to make sure that this policy is always applied, and then give it a search query that tells it what infrastructure to pull in." And then th... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It's such crazy person talk. |
**Adam Jacob:** It's bananas. But you know, who's experienced that so far in industry? Me. Paul Stack who works with me. A small handful of people who are listening to this podcast who don't work for me, who have done it themselves, and they're like "Whoa...!" |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Some of them that listen to this show dream of working for you. |
**Adam Jacob:** Yeah. Well, if you want to work for me, the first step is to buy my software. \[laughter\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Wasn't it Don McKinnon, Jerod? The voicemail was for Don McKinnon, where it was that he'd \[unintelligible 00:54:12.07\] |
**Jerod Santo:** Oh, yeah, yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's what I'm referring to. Drop a note, Jason. Give us a little tease of that. |
**Jerod Santo:** Did you ever hear that, Adam? Don McKinnon, a Changelog listener, and now a guest - he was on the show this year - who's a fan of yours... And he confessed his fandom to Breakmaster Cylinder for our State of the 'log annual episode where BMC will remix people's voicemails... And so BMC remixed a voicem... |
\[54:47\] |
*Hey, Jerod, Adam, and everyone at Changelog. My favorite episode of 2024 was the Changelog & Friends episode "From Chef to System Initiative. I've been following Adam Jacob on social media for a while, and he's always a great guest. So it was interesting to hear more about his career journey that led him to where he i... |
*I also got a kick out of the "Rails is having a moment again" episode. A lot of times I disagree with DHH, but regardless, he is always entertaining to listen to. Thank you for all the work you guys do on the podcast. It's one of my favorites."* |
**Jerod Santo:** And the BMC remix has basically Don confessing that he stalked you, and you had him thrown out of your office. |
\[55:32\] |
*"My favorite episode was from Chef to System Initiative. I've been following Adam Jacob on social media for a while... I've been also following Adam Jacob to work. And I got kicked out of his company. So it was interesting to hear more about his career journey that led him to kick me out of his company. And I disagree... |
**Jerod Santo:** It was hilarious. We'll have to let you listen to that. |
**Adam Jacob:** Yeah, I really do wanna listen to that. |
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