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**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, you should. I mean, if you want the ego boost, this is a good one for you. |
**Adam Jacob:** \[56:11\] Oh, that's so fun. Yeah, I could use it after my after my humble pie of realizing I had to delete years of effort because the interface was wrong. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Can we get into the practicality of - they say AI slop, right? And so you said you just did this feature in three hours, which is mind-blowing... |
**Adam Jacob:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And that means that you've got code generated by the LLM, that you didn't write, but you're probably code reviewing. So I'm assuming you're generating a lot more code, maybe a lot more prose even too around what you're building... Because documentation - why not? When you can just generate it. Do it... |
**Adam Jacob:** To some degree, yeah |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, for sure. But what is what is it like to generate that kind of feature in that kind of timeframe, and do it well in terms of code? Do you code-review it? What's your engineering change of practice as a result of generating so much code? |
**Adam Jacob:** Yeah, yeah. I don't know... It's interesting. So that example is happening in a vacuum, where we're basically running a little spike to be like, okay, very few people have actually built end-to-end, complicated, full lifecycle application deployments using this kind of technology, because it just is too... |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. |
**Adam Jacob:** And that I tend to also use AI to do. I'm like "Hey, here's the list of requirements." Like Playwright, or those sorts of things are great at just being like "Go prove this thing. Write me some tests." And its purpose is really just to meet the requirements. When it comes to the actual System Initiative... |
I think in general what we've all kind of learned is that the more specific we can be, the better the outcomes are. So in the early stages of this you were trying to feed it as little as possible, and then hoping it would do magic, and then judging it when it doesn't perform... And I think now we've sort of transitione... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It's a dance. |
**Adam Jacob:** And then I'm going to read the plan, and then we're going to talk about the plan, and then you're going to go execute on this plan, and then I'm going to see if I like what you did... And if I don't, maybe I throw it away. And I would have never done that historically... Like, just open a branch and the... |
And so that stuff has changed... But the fundamental question of like "How do you apply taste? How do you apply the right level of engineering?", that really hasn't changed. So a good example is the first MCP server for System Initiative actually a customer built, and had showed it to me, and I wasn't very enthusiastic... |
\[01:00:15.05\] And then when I started really reading about how to build them well, and what their abstractions were, suddenly it started to perform. And that's the difference between the one that we just -- you gave a prompt like "Here's an API spec. Make me an MCP server", which it will go do, versus saying "As a pe... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Is there a known freedom? Like "Hey, do what you want." |
**Adam Jacob:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Sweet. |
**Adam Jacob:** Like, I'm just going to give you a license to Claude Code, or you want to use VS Code and run Copilot, what I'm going to do is pay you the same way that when you come work for me I'll buy you whatever keyboard you want... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. |
**Adam Jacob:** Like, I don't care. And people are often like "Oh, any keyboard?" And I'm like "Yeah, any keyboard." And they're like "Well, what if it's this really expensive keyboard, and I want custom key caps from Japan, with little emoji apples on them?" And I'm like "Any keyboard. I don't care." Because what I wa... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah... There's this custom keyboard, Adam, that I want... Well, I don't really want it. It just looks beautiful... I would never spend the money on it. I'm just kind of curious -- |
**Adam Jacob:** Which one is that? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I can't remember the name of it, but it's... I'm past my research of it, but... |
**Adam Jacob:** I see. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It's not in my brain space anymore. |
**Jerod Santo:** He already denied himself and moved on. |
**Adam Jacob:** Yeah, he already said no. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[unintelligible 01:02:01.09\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** When I tell you the number you're gonna know why. It was like over $400 to build this custom keyboard. |
**Adam Jacob:** Hey man, I've been running it Kinesis Advantage keyboards since the early 2000s, and easy 300 bucks, 400 bucks. Saved my wrists, changed my life... |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. Some things you don't want to go cheap on. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I think in this case though it wasn't about ergonomics, though. It was about look. It was about aesthetics more so. |
**Jerod Santo:** Oh, you like the look of it. |
**Adam Jacob:** Yeah, it was like a Lamborghini. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. It was about how it looked, not how it functioned. |
**Adam Jacob:** Yeah, you were like "That looks awesome. And I want mine." |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It looks cool. |
**Adam Jacob:** It has spinning rims. |
**Break**: \[01:02:41.28\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Do you feel like a babysitter of this AI? Because I've had this idea that we don't have enough babysitters. Or we get to a point where we need taste... You need the LLM to generate, you need the speed at which it knows and can learn, the collaborative fabric that you just described... But then you'v... |
**Adam Jacob:** Yeah... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** You need to have that tasteful babysitting mentality... And I just wonder if we're going to run out of babysitters anytime soon. |
**Adam Jacob:** I don't think so... My experience is it's a different kind of flow. The kind of flow where I'm sitting down and writing code, and I'm just going to write code for eight hours a day, which now that I'm saying it I kind of miss... And so I'm like "Oh, I wonder when I could -- maybe I'll go back to that." ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, it's babysitting once it starts going. Making the plan is fun. But the plan being baked and then it doing, and then you confirming that is totally babysitting. |
**Adam Jacob:** Yeah, but what's changed is that now I don't watch. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Okay... \[laughs\] YOLO. |
**Adam Jacob:** But it's not even YOLO. What it's opening up is that there's multiple avenues at once, and the agent will tell me when it needs my attention. And so I'm not waiting around, waiting for the agent to finish... I'm off doing other stuff. And that flows is very weird. In one part of the flow what I'm doing ... |
But yeah, when I started using these tools, I did a lot more babysitting than I do now. I did a lot of just like "Oh... Will it?" And I'm waiting for the drop. And now I'm not. I'm just expecting the drop. And I'm like \[unintelligible 01:06:50.21\] Like, okay, it's off doing its thing. What am I going to do now? Oh, I... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
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