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**Adam Stacoviak:** When Steve was up here, I was like "Steve's shirt has the thinner logo..." |
**Ben Leonard:** Yeah, yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And on stage here, it's much thicker. I noticed that. |
**Ben Leonard:** Right away, right away. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I saw it. I noticed kerning... Oh, yeah. |
**Ben Leonard:** Yeah, so I'm always fiddling with stuff. But then the beauty of Oxide is I get to work across everything. So I'm working across -- generally, most of what I do is working on the product. So in my case, it's the web console. So I work on the design system, on the UI, but I'm also working on the brand, a... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Go in the weeds. |
**Ben Leonard:** We have the same UI design system that drives every piece of design. We have the same colors, we have the same UI elements on both the website and the web console. They're kind of continuously informing each other. I mean, it's difficult, because I think there's been a shrinking of creativity in tech d... |
Linear is a great example of this, which is the design of the product and the design of the creative are one and the same. What that can mean is the world of design within product is much smaller. And so what that can mean is you have -- everyone's always complaining that all tech looks the same now. And that's probabl... |
I'm always figuring out how wide I can go with the branding, and keeping it still like it comes from the same world as everything else... And yeah, the industrial design, the creative, the product - there's so much to work on, so you have this variety. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** This rack behind us... Would this rack behind us look like that at all if you weren't here? |
**Ben Leonard:** It'd look a bit like that. |
**Jerod Santo:** Same shape, tall... |
**Ben Leonard:** Yeah -- if I wasn't here, it'd be squat, it'd be half the size... No, I think-- |
**Jerod Santo:** Less green, probably. |
**Ben Leonard:** It might be less green... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] Or maybe more green. |
**Ben Leonard:** We consulted a little bit with my old agency, Pentagram, industrial designers there, and we worked together on that a little bit. One thing that I'd learned from working on a hardware product previously is the first version was a small run that they distributed to people... And so they produced this th... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[01:04:46.09\] Things are different. |
**Ben Leonard:** Yeah. I mean, we were speaking about like color; color is the bane of my life. We have painted drive bays, we have powder coated metal, we have plastic pieces, and color matching the green I think is -- |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yes, that's probably got to be your thing, right? |
**Ben Leonard:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Is that a little off sometimes? |
**Ben Leonard:** Oh, it's a little off all the time. It's off all the time. And some of it's outside your control, so you have to think about how to handle that. So what you do is you avoid putting elements next to each other that might be different. If there's a little bit of separation, then visually you can get away... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Like bluey as in the cartoon bluey? |
**Ben Leonard:** Exactly. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Okay, bluey black. Disregard. |
**Ben Leonard:** It was a cool black. Cool as in like color temperature, not like cool black. |
**Jerod Santo:** Oh, I thought you liked it. |
**Ben Leonard:** Yeah, yeah. But my thought was as soon as we start integrating multiple components, then I'm trying to make sure I'm using the exact right black. Because -- |
**Jerod Santo:** Impossible. |
**Ben Leonard:** And yeah, so -- |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's hard. |
**Ben Leonard:** You're trying, yeah. Although I don't know how much of it is me trying to avoid upsetting myself. Like, these things that no one else notices... |
**Jerod Santo:** It sounds like a lot of it is internally-driven. |
**Ben Leonard:** Stuff no one else notices. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. They're like "Whatever..." |
**Ben Leonard:** This is like trauma-driven design. You guys have TDD, I have the same. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Do you get into the PCB design then, too? Or is it simply this -- and I don't want to simplify what you do, but... |
**Jerod Santo:** "Just the easy stuff back there..." |
**Adam Stacoviak:** ...do you get to step into that world where, like how is this -- because I think about Apple. Apple has done a great job of like branding everything. |
**Ben Leonard:** Yeah, yeah, yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** From the look of their CPU, right? From their latest M1 chips, or the latest M series chips, it's a design to everything they do. Do you get into that as well? |
**Ben Leonard:** I mean, Apple's a good example, because they're stunning inside as well. A little bit... Occasionally I dip my toe in and I get shouted to leave... The PCBs are currently green, and I think once I came into a channel and I was saying "Hey guys, can we make the PCBs black?" And I'm thinking, "Okay, you ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I think it does have impact to like thermo, and stuff like that. |
**Jerod Santo:** What did they tell you? |
**Ben Leonard:** They told me some information, none of which I retained... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** "Sorry I asked." |
**Ben Leonard:** Maybe they weren't telling the truth, maybe they were just saying it because they were like "Yeah, yeah, yeah..." |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Black was cool. I've seen black PCBs, they were cool. |
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