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**Ellie Huxtable:** With the CLI, the hard parts realistically have been the sheer amount of data people have. So if we ever want to change anything with database schemas, it's a migration which professionally, when we run a really big database migration, it's like "Let's really pay attention to what's going on here." ... |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. |
**Ellie Huxtable:** With the desktop app, it's a different set of challenges, I think. It's very -- the CLI is quite simple. The command line environment is -- it is very varied, but it's still a terminal. You still have command control sequences and various other things... With the graphical app, it's a bit different.... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[20:25\] Well, they're kind of dramatically different, too. I mean, the desktop, besides like you said, kind of the spiritual ties and the fact that you can pull in some of that shell history into the desktop... I mean, they're kind of like wildly different products, aren't they? |
**Ellie Huxtable:** I think so. I think they solve very similar problems. They're all about knowing what to do next and not forgetting what you've already done. And I think when you're looking at a shell prompt that does not have any shell history and then does not have any good documentation, it's very much like what ... |
**Jerod Santo:** Mm-hm. And so why did you go to the desktop? You could have just taken the shell, and maybe done a TUI, or expand it... I mean, it kind of is a TUI already, right? But expanded it and put this kind of functionality in, where it already existed. Why'd you decide to start fresh with a graphical interface... |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Yeah. So the end goal is to have both a TUI, a CLI, and a desktop app. But I think the desktop app is the most, like, revolutionary change. I'm kind of putting myself on a pedestal, I guess... \[laughter\] But there's a lot we can do in the graphical app that you either can't do with a TUI, or it fe... |
We have another example, we have Prometheus blocks. So imagine you have a runbook that is how to react to an incident, and you can have a chart in your documentation that's real time, with a terminal underneath it, that lets you change stuff, and you can see what you're doing and what reaction that has at the same time... |
An early prototype was actually a web app... So if you think like a Jupyter notebook style experience, where you run a server and then you open it locally... And I didn't really like how that felt. I think we couldn't integrate with the system quite as well, even with the web app angle... And the desktop feels a lot ni... |
**Break**: \[23:08\] |
**Jerod Santo:** How has it been working with Tauri as a platform? We've done a couple of shows on it. We have a few production apps out there... There are. They are out there. It's not trying to belittle it. But hasn't been a huge upswell. I mean, Electron still is the 800-pound gorilla in the room. |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Generally very good. There are some issues that the team are aware of and are working on... So firstly, the development experience has been really nice. Being able to write Rust has been really good for us, especially we're doing a lot of systemsy stuff. Being able to include all of the libraries we... |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. As you proliferate Tauris, you're not going to have multiple Chromiums in the background. |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Exactly. |
**Jerod Santo:** But if you're just going to run one, you're still going to run a full Chromium, right? |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Exactly. Yeah. |
**Jerod Santo:** Gotcha. |
**Ellie Huxtable:** MacOS has been nice because every user is -- you know, they're using the same web view that's consistent; it's what we develop on, so it's fine. Linux has been -- honestly, I thought it would be worse. So it's a lot better than I expected. Tauri on Linux currently uses an old WebKit version, which h... |
**Jerod Santo:** So another opportunity you had with this project - it was a fresh start codebase-wise - was Atuin CLI. I would say the reception to it that I see, and that I have, was like universally positive. It's just like "This just makes my life better." Open source... But the question is "Can we make money off o... |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Yeah, so the CLI was -- I mean, I could definitely charge people for hosting. I've had a number of people say "Oh, let me pay you single-digit dollars a month for shell history hosting." And that was nice. However, the way I looked at it was I don't want to work on shell history by myself forever. S... |
\[27:56\] It also really doesn't cost very much in terms of infrastructure to run. I self-host the Postgres on a Hetzner machine. It's cheap, it's really performant, and other than my time, it's not a big sync. Desktop, I think has a lot more potential in terms of like business project. There's a very direct organizati... |
It is open source, it's Apache 2... What is not yet open source is the hub for syncing. So we have two types of workspace. You can have an offline workspace, that gives you local files on your disk. You can put them in Git... Whatever you want, basically. But the hub is the synchronizing real time backend, and it's not... |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. What we say around these parts is "Rug pull, not cool." |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Exactly. |
**Jerod Santo:** So definitely keep your cards close to your chest, and then if you want to flip one over and show that you've got the ace of spades later, fine. Go ahead and do that. |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Yeah. And I feel very strongly that if you're running it on your machine, it should be open source. If it's a desktop app, you should be able to see what's going on, you should be able to change it... |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, I think that's a good distinction. That's a good place to draw a line in the sand, I think. And I think you're right, because when it comes to runbooks, I just feel like anybody who's playing single player don't care that much about something like this, because they've got their scripts... They m... |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Exactly. |
**Jerod Santo:** And so it's almost de facto team, right? Like, it's going to be collaborative... Obviously, there's the outliers who will be using it because they just like your software or whatever, or it's a prettier way to manage their own docs and scripts... But for the most part, I do think it's going to be somet... |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Exactly. And the only real way I could see the CLI applying to an org is like "Share your shell history with your team", which I don't think anyone's ever going to want to do, because it's weird. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah, it is kind of weird. It's like, at first you're like "That'd be great." And then you realize all the things you type in and you're like "No." |
**Ellie Huxtable:** I don't know, it's like my team seeing my browser history. There's not anything weird there, I just don't want to. |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. It just doesn't -- it's just useless, and maybe embarrassing at times, you know? You're like "Sometimes I type things that is wrong", you know? Or "I feel like a command is going to work and it doesn't." And it's like "There it is. That's my shell history." |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Absolutely. We have had a lot of people ask about self-hosting it, which is something I really want to support, but there's also the other angle of supporting it, and I've found with the CLI that it's self-hostable, and has been for forever, and it's tricky to support people. Generally, the Docker C... |
**Jerod Santo:** Sure. |
**Ellie Huxtable:** So if we do open source it, and I would like to, it would definitely be like "You can run it... It's on you." |
**Jerod Santo:** Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense... Versus like a GitHub enterprise thing, where you're going to go install it on their premises and operate it for them. Yeah, that makes sense. Going back to the CLI and potential monetization - people are desiring to give you money, and that's because they love t... |
**Ellie Huxtable:** \[32:23\] So we had GitHub Sponsors for a long time, and -- |
**Jerod Santo:** Well, what about the hosted sync? Like "Let me give you two bucks a month to do this." |
**Ellie Huxtable:** I think that changes what it is. Maybe someday I will, but I think realistically, it doesn't cost me very much to run, and I'm quite happy providing it as just a thing people can use. |
**Jerod Santo:** Okay. |
**Ellie Huxtable:** The two bucks a month - I mean, I guess... But then it becomes a -- like, supporting people, because there's suddenly... Like, they're paying, they're actual customers, and it's a strong expectation there. But we haven't had any downtime in like a year, so probably we'd probably be fine, but... |
**Jerod Santo:** Probably. It sounds like you designed it pretty well, and it's relatively efficient. |
**Ellie Huxtable:** I'm happy with it. |
**Jerod Santo:** You're not having to constantly be working on it, and maybe upgrading, whether it's vertical, or scaling the other way... So that's nice. Remember when Radiohead came out with their In Rainbows album, and it's like "Pay what you want"? And I don't think free was an option on that one, but basically -- ... |
**Ellie Huxtable:** It's true. It's quite expensive these days. |
**Jerod Santo:** It is. And it's not getting cheaper. |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Yeah. I think honestly, for me, I want to explore what we can do with the desktop app, and then maybe the future of the CLI might change... But where it is now, I'm super-happy with how it's going. I'm super-happy to let people just have it and use it. Realistically, my thoughts on monetizing open s... |
**Jerod Santo:** Right. So how has the reception then been to the desktop release? Because it's in beta, it's out there, it's open source... And it hasn't been very long, maybe a month or so that it's been out. |
**Ellie Huxtable:** Yeah. It's been really good. We have emphasis on opt-in telemetry. |
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