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3,382 |
The private insurance industry skims the cream off the milk...simple. | 5 |
2,113 |
Well Bosnia and the US did...the UN cannot impose blue berets on
a country, and the US has voted for the current policy and mandate
in the Security Council...and could have said no if it wanted to...
it has a veto.
Clinton has not demanded the removal of the UN forces...because he want
to have his cake and eat it too...he wants to dictate policy but
not be responsible for the policy he wants to dictate. If Clinton
asks for the blue berets to leave, then he Bill Clinton becomes
responsible for what happens...him and Sen. Biden and their friends
who want to fight the war from 10,000 ft...as long as the blue berets
are there Clinton can use Europe as a scapegoat for American
indecisiveness.
I fully admit that the current UN policy approved by all the major
powers including the US may be wrong or inappropriate...but these
"back-seat drivers" in the US like Clinton and Biden are just a bunch
of hypocrites looking for an gimmick to look like they are doing
something to assuage their own consciences and those who are
demanding action or leadership...and most European leaders are
smart enough to know the difference between American hot air and
American leadership.
Well, if Biden is so outraged...why the hell doesn't he do something
about it...where is his resolution in the US Senate for a declaration
of war or the commitment of US forces and troops. Biden is just
full of hot air. | 5 |
6,659 |
As far as I know, there is no FAQ for tpg. Somebody was working
on one, but I think it "died in committee."
| 5 |
4,906 | Hey! If you can get it together, I'm all for it! I too am one of the poor
(a college student) Get a bank account set aside, and set aside a big ass
data base and you will get my contribution. I'm setting aside as of now 10$
a month. Not a slew of cash to be sure, but it's the best I can do. Let me
know what you guys come up with. I'm sure as hell not going anywhere. | 5 |
3,679 |
From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Zionism - racism
Diaspora 'a cancer'
------------------- by Julian Kossoff and Lindsay Schusman in:
Jewish Chronicle, London, 22. Dec. 1989
Leading Israeli author and cultural commentator, A.B. Yehoshua,
launched a ferocious attack on diaspora Jewry at a Zionist Youth
Council meeting in North London, last week.
The diaspora, he claimed, "was the cancer connected to the main
tissue of the Jewish people". He was scathing about its failure to
act before the Holocaust.
[ deleted for bravity ]
Jewish values in Israel embraced every aspect of daily life,
unlike in the diaspora, where Jews had no responsibility for the
country they lived in, he said.
He warned that modern Hebrew, a unifying force for the Jewish
people, would have to struggle for its future, especially in
literary circles. It faced fierce competition from the English
language.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
So?
--Amos | 5 |
7,186 |
satire \'sa-tir\ n [MF or L; MF, fr. L _satura_, _satira_, fr. (lanx)
satura full plate, medley, fr. fem. of _satur_ sated; akin to L
_satis_ enough - more at SAD](1509) 1: a literary work holding up
human vices and follies to ridicule or scorn. 2: trenchent wit,
irony, or sarcasm used to expose and discredit vice or folly. syn see
WIT.
spl | 5 |
4,996 |
With your level of understanding, my dear friend Mutlu probably
thought that he'd be nice and help you genocide apologist to get
the point. Besides, all your article reflects is your abundant
ignorance. Ignorance is probably the main reason why you historical
revisionist are in such a mess. You even make Nazi/criminal Armenians
laugh.
"In Soviet Armenia today there no longer exists a single Turkish soul.
It is in our power to tear away the veil of illusion that some of us
create for ourselves. It certainly is possible to severe the artificial
life-support system of an imagined 'ethnic purity' that some of us
falsely trust as the only structure that can support their heart beats
in this alien land."
(Sahak Melkonian - 1920 - "Preserving the Armenian purity")
"An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of
the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at
least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The
memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and
eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in
1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound."
(Rachel A. Bortnick - The Jewish Times - June 21, 1990)
1."Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill, Bobbs Co., Indianapolis,
1926
Memoirs of an Armenian Army Officer translated to English and
published by a member of American "Near East Relief Organization."
Gives the whole account of the genocide of all Turkish and Moslem
people in Armenia organized and executed by Armenian Government and
Army. Also gives account of countless other massacres and atrocities
against the Turkish people in Armenia.
2."Adventures in the Near East" by A. Rawlinson,
Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925
Eyewitness account of the same genocide by a British Army Officer.
3."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn,
Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952
Another eyewitness account of the same genocide by an American
Officer.
4."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian,
The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17
(Spring 1964)
Memoirs of the chief Armenian delegate to the Paris Peace Conference
were published in the Armenian Review Magazine in 13 articles from
Volume 15 (Fall 1962) to Volume 17 (Spring 1964). These memoirs
include an interview between Aharonian and British Foreign Minister
Lord Curzon in which above-mentioned genocide was discussed. The
official report mentioned by Lord Curzon is the report of British
High Commissioner to Caucasia, Sir Oliver Wardrop.
'Kill Turks and Kurds wherever you find them and in
whatever circumstances you find them. Turkish children
also should be killed as they form a danger to the
Armenian nation.' (Hamparsum Boyadjian - 1914)[1]
[1] M. Varandian, "History of the Dashnaktsutiun," p. 85.
Source: Hovannisian, Richard G.: Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, p. 13.
"The addition of the Kars and Batum oblasts to the Empire increased the
area of Transcaucasia to over 130,000 square miles. The estimated population
of the entire region in 1886 was 4,700,000, of whom 940,000 (20 percent) were
Armenian, 1,200,000 (25 percent) Georgian, and 2,220,000 (45 percent) Moslem.
Of the latter group, 1,140,000 were Tatars. Paradoxically, barely one-third
of Transcaucasia's Armenians lived in the Erevan guberniia, where the
Christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds. Erevan
uezd, the administrative center of the province, had only 44,000 Armenians
as compared to 68,000 Moslems. By the time of the Russian Census of 1897,
however, the Armenians had established a scant majority, 53 percent, in the
guberniia; it had risen by 1916 to 60 percent, or 670,000 of the 1,120,000
inhabitants. This impressive change in the province's ethnic character
notwithstanding, there was, on the eve of the creation of the Armenian
Republic, a solid block of 370,000 Tartars who continued to dominate the
southern districts, from the outskirts of Ereven to the border of Persia."
(See also Map 1. Historic Armenia and Map 4. Administrative subdivisions of
Transcaucasia).
In 1920, '0' percent Turk.
"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as
ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work
of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village.
Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts
into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable
and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets
completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They
found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border
into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole
length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to
Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain
plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of
Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for
howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the
scattered bones of the dead."
Ohanus Appressian
"Men Are Like That"
p. 202.
Serdar Argic | 5 |
65 | The White House
Office of the Press Secretary
-----------------------------------------------------------------
For Immediate Release April 19, 1993
STATEMENT OF PRESIDENT CLINTON
I am deeply saddened by the loss of life in Waco today. My
thoughts and prayers are with the families of David Koresh's
victims.
The law enforcement agencies involved in the Waco siege
recommended the course of action pursued today. The Attorney
General informed me of their analysis and judgment and
recommended that we proceed with today's action given the risks
of maintaining the previous policy indefinitely. I told the
Attorney General to do what she thought was right, and I stand by
that decision. | 5 |
1,460 | I heard the other day that Rush has gotten together with Tammy Faye Baker.
They were crawling in bed the other night and Rush's feet brushed up against
Tammy's legs. "God! your feet are cold" she said. Rush looked back at here
and said, "Tammy honey, I told you when we're alone you can just call me
Rush."
Ba dump Bump! pishhhhh | 5 |
5,713 |
How about tell everyone what the hell they were doing there in the first place?
If we knew that, we'd be in a much better position to judge their actions.
Until then, we can only speculate and develop nice conspiracy and/or police
state stories. | 5 |
3,104 | Has anyone considered how to prosecute a city holding a "no
questions asked" buy-back for receiving stolen property? | 5 |
6,858 | ------------------------- Original Article -------------------------
The Colorado Daily recently reprinted the Wall Street Journal's article
on Paxton Quigley, including the nefarious little paragraph the Journal
tacked onto the end. After recieving much assistance from various T.P.G.
type folks, I wrote a letter to the editor criticizing this last paragraph,
and surprise, surprise, surprise, they published it. The text follows.
The Colorado Daily, btw, is the University of Colorado (Boulder) student
(I think) newspaper... not exactly a big coup, but every little bit, i guess...
(The title was the only thing they changed/added)
"Gun Stats"
The Daily recently reprinted an article from the
Wall Street Journal, primarily concerned with Paxton
Quigley, author of "Armed and Female." The article,
in turn, cites a misleading statistic that was originally
reported in the New England Journal of Medicine. The
article states, "A study... found that a gun in the home
was 43 times more likely to be used to kill its owner,
spouse, a friend, or child than to kill an intruder." This
is an often-quoted statistic, and it is misleading for sev-
eral reasons, outlined below:
The study gives the impression that, if you own a
gun, the likelihood that you will successfully use it to
defend yourself is less than that of the gun being turned
against you. The study, however, fails to take into
account cases where a law-abiding citizen uses a gun
to thwart a crime, without actually killing the perpe-
trator.
The study actually refers to 'acquaintances' rather
than 'friend'. This would include the friendly neigh-
borhood thug who shows up like clockwork, every
month, the second your grandmother cashes her social
security check. Possibly an acquaintance, but hardly a
friend.
The NEJM study is based on the immediate dis-
position of cases and fails to take into account cases
originally filed as homicides that were later ruled to be
self-defense. Especially considering the small sample
size (396), taking these events into account has a sub-
stantial effect on the 43:1 ratio quoted.
Criminologist Gary Kleck gives us a slightly dif-
erent statistic: a gun is 33 times more likely to be
used, successfully, by a private citizen against an
aggressor than it is to kill anyone at all. Further, per-
sons defending themselves from aggression by using a
gun fare better than those who resist vicimization by
some other means, or who offer no resistance at all.
Statistics available from the FBI and other agencies
also show that a gun is 245 times more likely to be
used by a non-criminal to defend against criminal threat
than to be used to commit criminal homicide, 535 times
more likely to be used to defend against a criminal
threat than to accidentally kill anybody, and 50 times
more likely to defend against criminal threat than to be
used to commit suicide.
It is well to keep in mind that nearly anything can
be proved by uncritical quotation of statistics. One has
to consider carefully what questions were asked by
those gathering the data before one can draw an accu-
rate conclusion from them.
D.F. Taylor
CU Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry
--
Spooksmoke: Revolution, Assasination, Thorium, Cobalt-60, Clintin, CIA, NSA, SHC
DoD #202 / loki@acca.nmsu.edu / liberty or death / taylordf@ucsu.colorado.edu
Send me something even YOU can't read...
-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-----
Version: 2.2 | 5 |
3,642 |
Presumably the B-D did not mount a continuous state of alert with gunmen
ready to fire on people who casually walked up to ring the doorbell.
Once inside the building the BATF would have been in control. Trained
police officers are a match to any bunch of Bozos playing at soldiers.
Not a smart move. Unless meant to be part of the surprize cover. Even so
the narrow opening of the trucks simply was not a good idea. A side opening
truck would have been much better, more like a covered waggon.
Sounds just about right to me. Its the minimum amount of force that I
would consider necessary to serve a warrant on the talk.politics.guns
annual dinner.
Michael Hesseltine ordered the use of over 5000 crack troops including
members of the parachute regiment to remove approx 250 hippy peace
protestors on a site where they wanted to install cruise missiles. He
even turned up in a flack jacket to monitor the proceedings. Just about the
most dangerous tool the women possesed was a tin opener. That single
action probably cost him the position as Prime Minister. One of the elders
of my church got arrested in that heroic action by the forces of Toryism.
Hesseltine ever after was something of a national joke.
| 5 |
1,091 | In <EGGERTJ.93May9230207@moses.ll.mit.edu> eggertj@moses.ll.mit.edu
When I was in Jerusalem a couple of years ago, our guide told
us the story of that mosque - not sure if it was true.
Apparently, it was built by a Jewish convert to Islam. He had
had a dispute with his neighbours, and built the mosque "davka" to
annoy them. It's a cute story, but not sure if it's true...
| 5 |
7,117 | First of all I'm still baffled what you possibly could have
found racist in my argument for freedom of speach. I did not
mention names, nationalities, countries let alone races.
You are right in that Virginia.edu does not have a
thought police like Israel.nysernet.org seems to. I didn't know
that you guys are getting a privelege by the Israelis by
getting "the means to speak publicly". Virginia.edu lets EVERY
student regardless of their opinion to speak their mind.
Virginia.edu is true to its founding father, Thomas
Jefferson the author of the bill of rights, in allowing freedom
of speach. Sorry you guys in israel have a hard time with the
concept.
| 5 |
5,530 |
What a JOKE! You can't actually believe what you just said. Can you? We
bombed and invaded these countries.
Notice the definition of war (from the American Heritage Dictionary):
1) A state or period of armed conflict between nations or states.
This qualifies the invasions of Cambodia and Laos as wars.
Then let me explain this to you REALLY slowly. Why did he abuse the
powers of his position? Could it have been to gain personal political
power? Naw, that would be too obvious.
And anyone who can only call names because his position is defensless is
breathtakingly ignorant and desperate. I noticed that you edited out the
other points were I proved you and Phil to be completely wrong.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Death to all modifiers, he declared one day, and out of Garrett Johnson
every letter that passed through his hands went every Garrett@Ingres.com
adverb and adjective. The next day he made war on articles.
The following day he blacked out everything in the letters
but "a", "an", and "the". - Joseph Heller's Catch-22 | 5 |
782 | Let's discuss Reno's taking full responciblity. Is everyone happy with the
outcome? Did the FBI pursue the correct course of action? was justice done?
If Reno really meant what she said she would resign! She is just grand
standing, period. What did those people do wrong in the first place? that is
what i can't figure out. sure they were crazy, no dought about it, but what did
they do wrong? someone please help me out on this. | 5 |
4,446 |
And you'd be wrong about that too.
Note that Texas isn't unique in this "more with-gun deaths than
with-car deaths", but some of the other states where it happens have
extremely strict gun laws. Oops - so much for the "meaning".
It isn't clear that the comparision means anything anyway as car
accidents are unintentional while gun deaths aren't, but if we're
going to make it, let's at least be honest.
Give it up for what? Gun control doesn't have any benefits, so
it fails by this standard.
Note that insurance gives me something in return - gun control doesn't.
That's half the question - the rest is "and what do you get for your
sacrifice". If the answer to the second question is "nothing", as it
is for gun control, then we don't have to ask the first question
because getting nothing means that no sacrifice is justified.
-andy | 5 |
2,140 | Turkish Genocide Apology in revision <9304261646@zuma.UUCP> posted via its
[fool] Thanks to those who joined millions of Turkish and Kurdish people
[fool] on April 23, 1993 when they remembered, mourned and prayed for 2.5
[fool] million Muslim people who were ruthlessly exterminated by the fascist
[fool] x-Soviet Armenian Government between 1914 and 1920.
I tend to doubt this for there was no ex-Soviet Armenian government between
1914 and 1920! Revisionist, liar, AND fool!
| 5 |
613 | Yesterday, the FBI was saying that at least three of the bodies had
gunshot wounds, indicating that they were shot trying to escape the
fire. Today's paper quotes the medical examiner as saying that there
is no evidence of gunshot wounds in any of the recovered bodies.
At the beginning of this siege, it was reported that while Koresh
had a class III (machine gun) license, today's paper quotes the
government as saying, no, they didn't have a license.
Today's paper reports that a number of the bodies were found with
shoulder weapons next to them, as if they had been using them while
dying -- which doesn't sound like the sort of action I would expect
from a suicide.
Our government lies, as it tries to cover over its incompetence
and negligence. Why should I believe the FBI's claims about
anything else, when we can see that they are LYING?
This system of government is beyond reform. | 5 |
1,302 | On 20 Apr 93 13:34:03 GMT, Gary Piatt observed:
: First, the median does not imply that half of the men are
: above and half below 7.3: it simply means that 7.3 is the mid-point
: between the maximum number of partners and the minimum (which is most
: likely zero).
Actually, the median *is* defined as the 50th percentile. If the
median number of sexual partners for men is 7.3, it means that
at least 50% of men have had 7.3 or fewer sexual partners, and
at least 50% of men have had 7.3 or more sexual partners.
(Question: What is 0.3 of a sexual partner? :)
To confuse matters more, take the following data set:
[5.0, 6.0, 6.0, 7.0, 7.0, 7.3, 8.0, 9.0, 9.0, 9.0, 250.0]
The mean (arithmetic average) of the above set of numbers is 29.4.
The sample standard deviation is 73.2.
The mode is 9.0.
The median is 7.3.
--
Michael D. Adams (starowl@a2i.rahul.net) Enterprise, Alabama | 5 |
1,920 |
I think the answer to Mr. Mayamsky's question can be found in the
first amendment to the US Constitution.
Amendment I (1791)
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or
abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the
right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition
the government for a redress of grievances.
Steve | 5 |
3,138 | 5 | |
7,139 |
Drop three billiard balls on a ramp, and they all roll in the same
direction. Pour some blood into the sea, and sharks will converge
from miles around. Throw a pebble at one starling, and all 200 will
depart.
Natural processes can mimic the outward results of conspiracy when no
actual conspiracy is required.
Put a government functionary in an embarrassing situation, and he
quickly covers his ass.
This, too, is completely natural.
It looks that way to me, too. But you have to understand that it's NOT
the first time they have instigated raids like these. The most recent
one ALSO ended up in a long standoff, but it wasn't quite as public
as this one, and they didn't kill quite as many people. Maybe this
screwup will make them think long and hard about raiding any more
residences in this manner. But probably not.
I assume you're talking about Philadelphia.
If you're a fan of conspiracies, the time to make that batch of
popcorn is AFTER the screwup, when it's time for the coverup.
-- | 5 |
5,059 |
Ironic, since it's pretty much what was used to blow up the World Trade
Center...
-- | 5 |
6,088 | :
I'm responding at the risk of misreading your response, but I do have to tell
my fellow conservatives to give it up, attacking Reno/Clinton/ATF/FBI.
They may have botched an operation, but they didn't kill anybody who never shot
at them first. David Koresh was a frigging lunatic. His followers had the
combined I.Q of a Geraldo audience. The kids probably would have been those
fucked up social rejects who go to Freshman dances in high school, never to be
seen again (except maybe in the band) until prom, when they show up like
animals boarding the ark. Then it's bowling till 3 in the morning.....
(WHY....WHY?? did it happen to me??!!)
Anyway, the point is Janet Reno/Bill Clinton were only following the advice of
trained, law enforcement officials who were experts in their fields. I'd
rather have our leaders do that then micro-manage every crisis that comes
along. Then you'd really see trouble no matter what party or ideology the
President and her (er.. I mean his) Attorney General is.
--
Ryan C. Scharfy | 5 |
6,389 | : >
: >Unless, of course, the problem is that homosexuality is a form
: >of mental disorder, caused by childhood sexual abuse, as a number of
: >recent works suggest.
:
: Which number is that? Zero?
The only time I have heard mention of such a mechanism is
with respect to FEMALE homosexuality resulting from HETEROSEXUAL
childhood abuse.
(and this as only one of several factors affecting the same person)
As Mr Cramer appears to concentrate on MALE homosexuality
I doubt this is what he has in mind.
-- | 5 |
7,202 |
:So we try to ensure that the process of deciding whether to introduce
:third parties isn't random. As Steve said above, there are examples
:where third parties *are* less ignorant or corrupt than the two
:primary parties; should this knowledge not be able to help?
Of course it helps, but only if the decision to involve third parties
is the primary partis' to make. A corrupt and ignorant third party
isn't going to say, "we're corrupt and ignorant, we'll stay out of this".
Pointing out that they are corrupt and ignorant won't help, they either
won't believe you or won't care.
:> It's impossible (or at least beyond my abilities) to formulate a rule
:>that will always tell whether the involvement of a third party would be
:>good or bad, but there's one that seems better than any other I've ever
:>heard suggested: voluntary good, mandatory bad. That is, a third
:>party should involve itself in a transaction ONLY at the request of
:>the primary participants.
:So we *don't* formulate a rule that will always tell; we try to use
:knowledge about other properties of situations. To some of us, it
:appears that trying always to apply "voluntary good, mandatory bad"
:is not only less than optimal, it is in some circumstances seriously
:damaging. The interesting question is to characterize those
:circumstances as best we can.
Look, somebody has to have the power to decide whether a third party
will regulate your transactions or not. That somebody is going to
be either you or the third party. You can argue until you are
blue in the face that regulators shouldn't get involved (in fact, people
have tried this), they won't listen. The fundamental question you
have to ask is, whose decision is it whether or not to involve regulators,
ours or theirs? After you've answered thed first question, you can
try to move on to such questions as "should regulators be involved" and, if
so, "what regulations are appropriate?" Although with your answer to
the first question, the second and third are taken out of your hands.
| 5 |
1,188 |
I guess you need to be reminded of some things! Have you ever heard of the
First Amendment? I guess not. It isn't a crime to be a religous (I know
you said "sacraligious", but it isn't your place to judge his religion)
zealot in this country. REMEMBER we have freedom of religion in this country!
I guess you are selective in that respect! So what if they were "bastard"
children. They were CHILDREN! Do you condone their deaths? I pray for
your lack of a soul if you do! | 5 |
5,878 | From: Center for Policy Research <cpr>
Subject: Rabin and his Palestinians kapos
Rabin's plans for a Palestinian police
(from The Other Front, Alternative Information Center,
Jerusalem, 5 May 1993)
"The decision to view the setting up of a local police force
for (sic) the Palestinians as the central issue for
deliberation at the peace talks to be resumed next week -
even before subjects like elections in the territories and
areas of juridiction in the framework of autonomy - is a
sign of the Israeli government's serious attitude towards
the peace process.
"The setting up of a police force is not part of the 'gesture
package', but deals with the very heart and substance of
the Palestinian struggle for national identity. As it turns
out, the main objective guiding the prime minister in the
setting up of a Palestinian police force - and apparently
also supported by Foreign Minister Shimon Peres - is to
ensure the holding of democratic elections in the
territories."
Thus writes Amnon Barzilai in his editorial (Israeli daily
Hadashot, 23 April), and his position articulates the
thinking of most of the commentators who dealt with this
issue in the past two weeks. Over against them stand the
settlers and rightwing parties, who also interpret the
decision to encourage the establishment of a Palestinian
police force as a significant step towards the instituting of
real autonomy, something which will restrict what can be
done by the Jewish settlers in the West Bank and Gaza
Strip. With a variety of demonstrations, including street
theater on 'What will happen when there is a Palestinian
police force', rightwing elements are attempting to
frighten the Israeli public and to pressure Rabin to go
back on his decision. Members of the Kach movement
have even begun to organize a 'settler police force' in the
Occupied Territories, as counter-balance to the future
Palestinian police force.
However, as Barzilai points out, the main function of the
new police force - as far as the Israeli government is
concerned - has nothing to do with the settlers, over
whom they will apparently have no authority, but will
control political groups within the Palestinian population,
whom the government is interested in neutralizing.
Writes Barzilai:
"...According to ideas currently taking shape, the setting
up of a local police force in the territories will precede,
not only the stage of electsion, but also the final stages of
the preparing of the interim autonomy agreement.
"The willingness of the Israeli government to set up a
local Palestinian police force is evidence that the
government is serious about arriving at a settlement with
the Palestinians..."
It's no wonder that the Palestinian public is also greatly
worried about this new Israeli initiative. And it is
inevitable that pressure will be brought to bear on Faisal
Husseini and the rest of the delegation members, from a
variety of directions, to refuse the gift which Rabin would
like to give them. But at this stage, it looks like the
Palestinians are cooperating in the fulfillment of his
plans.
| 5 |
6,645 |
|>>|> Excerpts from "Insight" magazine, March 15, 1993
| *Paranoia part deleted.*
| Isn't Insight magazine published by the Mooneys?
I don't remember the article that you removed so I can't comment on it.
What I can comment on though is your response.
Do you really believe that what you wrote is sufficient to refute
the article? Do have any facts in addition to your opinion?
No one has time to chase down every rumor that gets printed
in the National Enquirer or whatever. The point is to wait
and see if the assertions of the (rather bizarre) original
post will be corroborated in any way. Perhaps they will.
The recent posts of the rather bizarre original poster speak
for themselves. | 5 |
6,925 |
I think this is a little extreme, i am concerned about a couple of things
i've seen lately. It seems to me that the government is *beginning* to
enforce political correctness. the first King verdict was polically incorrect
so the hell with constutitional protection from double jeopardy, try the cops
again. the BD's are far as i can tell didn't do anything wrong. nothing that
would justify the horrable end they were subjected too. they were simply
polically incorrect in the extream. i can't help but wonder "who's next" | 5 |
1,949 |
You don't know much about the fall of Diem's government in Vietnam.
Or the traditional Indian practice of Suttee. People have been
burning themselves to death (or willing to go through such and end)
for political and religious reasons since the beginning of time.
Also, death from smoke inhalation is little better than dying from
the flames themselves. Think about breatning in searing toxic
gasses. It's not pleasant.
Then again, to a Buddhist monk, it might be. To each his own.
I'm waiting to see what the government has, too.
_____ _____
\\\\\\/ ___/___________________
Mitchell S Todd \\\\/ / _____/__________________________
________________ \\/ / mst4298@zeus._____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_'_/
\_____ \__ / / tamu.edu _____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_/
\__________\__ / / _____/_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_/
\_ / /__________/
\/____/\\\\\\
\\\\\\ | 5 |
2,890 |
"savior"
that
their
Tolerent, aren't we? Their's was hardly the first faith/sect/cult
to espouse this type of belief.
and
I keep hearing this, and while I'll agree that he "should" have come
out (legally, that was his best option), he didn't; and as far as I know,
there is no legal provision for "we're tired of this shit, lets just
kick some ass..."
So I have a question for you; here goes.
I come up to you and point a gun at you, saying "I'm going to count
to ten, if you aren't standing on your head by then, I'll kill you."
You believe that standing on your head is the road to damnation, so
you don't do it.
"1..2..3..4..5..6..7..8..9..10...BANG!" You are now dead - Is it my
fault for shooting you, or you're fault for being shot?
Koresh wouldn't stand on his head. | 5 |
4,023 | So far, there is NO credible evidence that the BD's set the fires
themselves. We only have the ATF/FBI's sayso. Law enforcements type
would *never* lie to cover their ass, right?
No, not love, just share a surprising similarity of beliefs and
method.
Funny, yeah, funny how you didn't wait for the FBI spokesdroid
latest reversal of "facts" before proclaiming the BD's burned
themselves to death.
| 5 |
7,047 |
You have yet to answer any or all of my questions and challenges to your
statements. By this am I to assume that you are unable to do so? Or just
plain unwilling due to your lack of proof/intelligence? So what next? I
prove you wrong so you just put me in your killfile?
Your lack of reasoned response seems to be a typical Clayton response.
| 5 |
2,021 |
Typical 'virvir' drivel. People will think you're just some
looney howling in the wires. If you think that this 'clears
things up' for me or anyone else, you must also believe that
aliens from outer space come to earth regularly and abduct
'Arromdians' of ASALA/SDPA/ARF for medical experiments. There
is stronger evidence for *that* you know.
'Propagandist leaflets'? This is an American officer on the
genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people by the Armenians between
1914 and 1920, not a crook/idiot like yourself.
Source: "World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn. Crown Publishers,
Inc., New York (1952).
(Memoirs of an American officer who witnessed the Armenian genocide of 2.5
million Muslim people)
p. 361 (seventh paragraph) and p. 362 (first paragraph).
'The most are inside houses. Come you and look.'
'No, dammit! My stomach isn't-'
'One is a Turkish officer in uniform. Him you must see.'
"We were under those trees by the mosque, in an open space....
'I don't believe you," I said, but followed to a nail-studded door. The
man pushed it ajar, then spurred away, leaving me to check on the corpse.
I thought I should, this charge was so constant, so gritted my teeth and
went inside.
The place was cool but reeked of sodden ashes, and was dark at first, for
its stone walls had only window slits. Rags strewed the mud floor around an
iron tripod over embers that vented their smoke through roof beams black
with soot. All looked bare and empty, but in an inner room flies buzzed. As
the door swung shut behind me I saw they came from a man's body lying face
up, naked but for its grimy turban. He was about fifty years old by what
was left of his face - a rifle butt had bashed an eye. The one left slanted,
as with Tartars rather than with Turks. Any uniform once on him was gone, so
I'd no proof which he was, and quickly went out, gagging at the mess of his
slashed genitals."
p. 363 (first paragraph).
'How many people lived there?'
'Oh, about eight hundred.' He yawned.
'Did you see any Turk officers?'
'No, sir. I was in at dawn. All were Tartar civilians in mufti.'
"The lieutenant dozed off, then I, but in the small hours a voice woke me -
Dro's. He stood in the starlight bawling out an officer. Anyone keelhauled
so long and furiously I'd never heard. Then abruptly Dro broke into
laughter, quick and simple as child's. Both were a cover for his sense
of guilt, I thought, or hoped. For somehow, despite my boast of irreligion,
Christian massacring 'infidels' was more horrible than the reverse would
have been.
From daybreak on, Armenian villagers poured in from miles around.....
The women plundered happily, chattering like ravens as they picked over
the carcass of Djul. They hauled out every hovel's chattels, the last
scrap of food or cloth, and staggered away, packing pots, saddlebags,
looms, even spinning-wheels.
'Thank you for a lot, Dro,' I said to him back in camp. 'But now I must
leave.'...We shook hands, the captain said 'A bientot, mon camarade.' And
for hours the old Molokan scout and I plodded north across parching plains.
Like Lot's wife I looked back once to see smoke bathing all, doubtless in
a sack of other Moslem villages up to the line of snow that was Iran.'"
p. 354.
"At morning tea, Dro and his officers spread out a map of this whole
high region called the Karabakh. Deep in tactics, they spoke Russian,
but I got their contempt for Allied 'neutral' zones and their distrust
of promises made by tribal chiefs. A campaign shaped; more raids on
Moslem villages."
p. 358.
"It will be three hours to take," Dro told me. We'd close in on three
sides.
"The men on foot will not shoot, but use only the bayonets," Merrimanov
said, jabbing a rifle in dumbshow.
"That is for morale," Dro put in. "We must keep the Moslems in terror."
"Soldiers or civilians?" I asked.
"There is no difference," said Dro. "All are armed, in uniform or not."
"But the women and children?"
"Will fly with the others as best they may."
p. 360.
"The ridges circled a wide expanse, its floors still. Hundreds of feet
down, the fog held, solid as cotton flock. 'Djul lies under that,' said
Dro, pointing. 'Our men also attack from the other sides.'
Then, 'Whee-ee!' - his whistle lined up all at the rock edge. Bayonets
clicked upon carbines. Over plunged Archo, his black haunches rippling;
then followed the staff, the horde - nose to tail, bellies taking the
spur. Armenia in action seemed more like a pageant than war, even though
I heard our Utica brass roar.
As I watched from the height, it took ages for Djul to show clear. A tsing
of machine-gun fire took over from the thumping batteries; cattle lowed,
dogs barked, invisible, while I ate a hunk of cheese and drank from a snow
puddle. Mist at last folded upward as men shouted, at first heard faintly.
The came a shrill wailing.
Now among the cloud-streaks rose darker wisps - smoke. Red glimmered about
house walls of stone or wattle, into dry weeds on roofs. A mosque stood in
clump of trees, thick and green. Through crooked alleys on fire, horsemen
were galloping after figures both mounted and on foot.
'Tartarski!' shouted the gunner by me. Others pantomimed them in escape
over the rocks, while one twisted a bronze shell-nose, loaded, and yanked
breech-cord, firing again and again. Shots wasted, I thought, when by
afternoon I looked in vain for fallen branch or body. But these shots and
the white bursts of shrapnel in the gullies drowned the women's cries.
At length all shooting petered out. I got on my horse and rode down toward
Djul. It burned still but little flame showed now. The way was steep and
tough, through dense scrub. Finally on flatter ground I came out suddenly,
through alders, on smoldering houses. Across trampled wheat my brothers-in-
arms were leading off animals, several calves and a lamb."
p. 361 (fourth paragraph).
"Corpses came next, the first a pretty child with straight black hair,
large eyes. She looked about twelve years old. She lay in some stubble
where meal lay scattered from the sack she'd been toting. The bayonet
had gone through her back, I judged, for blood around was scant. Between
the breasts one clot, too small for a bullet wound, crusted her homespun
dress.
The next was a boy of ten or less, in rawhide jacket and knee-pants. He
lay face down in the path by several huts. One arm reached out to the
pewter bowl he'd carried, now upset upon its dough. Steel had jabbed
just below his neck, into the spine.
There were grownups, too, I saw as I led the sorrel around. Djul was
empty of the living till I looked up to see beside me Dro's German-speaking
colonel. He said all Tartars who had not escaped were dead."
p. 358.
"...more stories of Armenian murdering Turks when the czarist troops fled
north. My hosts told me of their duty here: to keep tabs on brigands,
Turkish troop shifts, hidden arms, spies - Christian, Red or Tartar -
coming in from Transcaucasus. Then they spoke of the hell that would
break loose if Versailles were to put, as threatened, the six 'Armenian'
vilayets of Turkey under the control of Erevan...
An Armenia without Armenians! Turks under Christian rule? His lips
smacked in irony under the droopy red moustache. That's bloodshed - just
Smyrna over again on a bigger scale."
Serdar Argic | 5 |
5,560 |
Only because you are apparently easy to fool. In other words, your
remark is obviously from someone who wouldn't know the difference.
--
"Insisting on perfect safety is for people who don't have the balls to live
in the real world." -- Mary Shafer, NASA Ames Dryden | 5 |
501 |
Well they could unseal the original warrent (Why was i sealed in the
first place?), release their video & tapes (from their listening devices
inside the compound) and quit makeing contradictory statements.
Do you believe their statement that the children were killed by
lethal injection? They later stated that the childrens bodies
were burned to the point the would be hard to identify. So
how did they come up with the lethal injection theory?
Unless the evidence was destroyed or other evidence planted.
You mean "Magic bullet" Spector?
I know, a lone gunman killed all the Branch Davidians. :-) || :-(
| 5 |
4,235 | Well everybody,
After reading tons of notes by Serdar, I have come to the following conclusion.
Turkey is PERFECT, and no Turk has ever made a mistake. He has proved to me at
least that the land occupied by Turkey today, was ALWAYS lived in peacefully by
Turks. (Including Istanbul AKA Constantinople) They treat their minorities
like gods and have only done good while all of their evil neighbors attacked
them. Somehow, despite these evil neighbors capable of nothing but murder
their population has exploded to almost 60 million in Turkey alone. (Note,
Armenian worldwide population is approximately 7 million total) I want to go
to this heaven on earth and meet the race that has made Serdar possible, that
has persevered, and has become a mecca for human rights lovers. (Amnesty
International must have bad sources, Turkey would never torture its citizens,
treat minorities badly, or kidnap 7 foreign journalists last year alone, who
incidentally are still missing), what I am trying to say is I WANT TO BE A
TURK!!!!
Now back to reality. I have once again been astounded by Serdars ability to
ignore all truth, all truly difficult questions, and go on to his encyclopedia
of quotes and sources that can be pasted into any note BY THE PAGE! Anybody at
all who has believed ANYTHING he has said, please step forward. Let him know
he hasn't been wasting his time, that SOMEBODY out there can be convinced by
the volume of e-mail you can produce, not the quality of the content. Well I am
off now. I will go dream some more about that perfect place, that nirvana,
that utopia, that xanadu, that TURKEY! | 5 |
3,834 |
On TV news this morning it was reported that the local Texas authorities
who have reviewed the cases of the 21 children who were released
earlier in the siege have found no evidence of physical or sexual
abuse of any of the children. I don't recall if this was on Good
Morning America or our local Texas TV station. | 5 |
546 | As we see right now, the position of influence enjoyed by parties favoring
the negotiation process is tenuous at best. The local "elections" in Hebron
that the PLO was expected to win (perhaps adding a bit to its flagging
position of "legitimacy" in the eyes of Palestinians and the Middle East)
have been disrupted by Hamas actions overtly directed towards
undermining those (and all West Bank) elections. The present ruling Israeli
Labor coalition seems to be one rather thin political ice. The Palestinian
delegation has been reduced from 14 to three to protest Israel "lack of
seriousness" in the talks and refusal to reverse all the deportations
immediately.
Hopefully, however, each of the parties will begin to learn that just
the fact that negotiations are taking place *does not mean* they are giving
anything away to "the other side" (which was/is the favorite argument of
the "rejectionists"). Let's hope that discusion and inevitable disagreement
on major issues leads at the same time to some agreement on smaller
"interim" ("phase", whatever term we prefer) steps to be taken.
| 5 |
185 | Minor quibble back at you. I am in the same general area as
the Koresh compound and I can tell you that the air was quite
chilly that morning, especially with the high winds that
were blowing. (Of course the swiss cheese walls made it
even worse. ;-)
| 5 |
3,008 |
Oh my god, I made a typo AND used the word "god". Come burn my house
down, I must deserve it.
| 5 |
3,449 |
Funny, the medical examiner today stated that there was no
evidence ONE WAY or ANOTHER that there were bullet wounds --
not a single autopsy has been performed, so all reports are
deemed speculative. INCLUDING reports that there were NO
bullet wounds.
Before long, I think all the kneejerk conspiracy theorists
are going to start getting pretty pissed off at how easily
they mislead themselves. Also, pretty disappointed at
being ignored by the coutnry.
| 5 |
3,363 |
With one exception, that's a pretty good description of many of the
Baptists I know. The exception is that they know the difference
between an M-16 and an AR-15. Heck - they even know that "it looks
like Richard Petty's stock car" doesn't mean "it's a racing stock
car". They may be uncouth, but they've figured out that appearance
isn't function.
-andy | 5 |
3,872 |
Oh are we Jill? Let me tell you a story then...
One evening not long in this country a man, a parolee, a convicted KNOWN
violent crimminal lead police on high speed chase after breaking another law.
He decided that police had no right to do their jobs and enforce the law
and assualted two of while attempting to resist arrest. When police use
metal sticks to force him into submission we heard all the reason why certain
people in this country have and excuse when they refuse to obey the law,
how this was a perfect example of police oppression, how all the police
had to do was behave a certain way and all would have been finei, how nothing
the victim did could have possibly warranted the response - some blows with
a few sticks - he got from the authorities.
Funny, how when it's Bloodbath Billy or his hitwench calling the shots,
a group of people who were bothering no one, were not know to have broken
any law, who asked only that they be left alone to practice their religion
as they fit, how it is now that the government is justified in assualting
those people with 100 heavily armed commandos simply because the gun
grabbers in DC thought these people had more guns thay they thought they
should have. Now when it's the Clinton administration that has the blood
of dozens on its hand AAAALL of a sudden it's the people who refused to
have their civil rights violated, it's their fault, those evil fanatics
provoked it...
How is it in the mind of the liberal Democrat-Clinton supporter that a
crimminal puke, scum bag, piece of garbage like Rodney King could not have
possibly provoked the beating he got, but this bunch of wierdos could cause
a fifty one day stand off that ended with the burning deaths of all of them
and their children, all by themselves with no help from the the police.
And to here people say they deserved what they got, to hear Clinton say
the blame rest solely with Koresch, what a cowardly piece of work that
man has shown, again, himself to be.
WE'RE blaming the right people. It is you and others that defend ANY of the
actions of the BATF, FBI or Justice Department in this matter, that with
each word prove again and again the depth of the hypocrisy, the double
standard that people like the Clintons would hold certain Americans to.
While at the same time allowing others to do as they please with only
excuses to offer their victims. It's all to clear these days, from the
comments of the "president" and the rationalizations of his supporters
in these groups, that in a liberal Democratic vision of America only
a certain select few people can expect to have civil rights enforced,
and this administration intends to enforce laws, apply the Constitution
and obey the laws only when it suits them to do so.
The Rooster
WARNING!
By order of Heir Clinton and for your own
personal safety: Remember to maintain membership
in ONLY BATF approved religious organizations.
BATF approved religious services.
| 5 |
3,950 |
Religious fanaticism? | 5 |
4,718 | agencies
your
dictionary
I don't recall saying Baptists do any of that. Though I suppose some do. And
none of them are listed in the dictionary as characteristics of a cult. My
mother stockpiled Campbells soup when it was on sale.
You are an intolerent, foul-mouthed human. You sound like you are ready to
join the KKK or neo-nazis, with a narrow mind like yours.
Far from it, I defend the rights of anyone to be different under our
constitution, which was formed in part to protect religious cults which had
been persecuted in England before migrating here to be free. You are the one
endangering our constitution.
Jim
--
jmd@handheld.com | 5 |
3,355 | 5 | |
7,428 | Just saw on CNN that the independent team that examined the Waco fire
and reported that it was started inside by the BDs is now under question.
The attoneys for the BD's are claiming that it's not an impartial team
for the team leader is the wife of one of the BATF agents. HA!
The goverment continues with it's propaganda.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
- This is not a secure line. -
- Daniel R. Oldham oldham@heron.icd.ab.com - | 5 |
2,150 |
I have not made up my mind about Waco, but there sure seems to be a group of
devoted government following fanatics willing to believe whatever that
government wants to tell them, without any shred of doubt, nor thought of thier
own. They sure get shrill whenever their belief structure is being shaken.
Kinda reminds you of the BDs, doesn't it?
Jim
--
jmd@handheld.com | 5 |
3,831 | Folks,
It's time to start building some precise questions to send to our
federal elected officials and to investigative reporters in our
local TV, radio and newprint media. Ideally, these questions could be
asked at any investigation into the BATF's and FBI's participation
at the WACO fiasco in hopes of being resolved and, hopefully, wake
up the local news media that they are not getting the entire truth
from the BATF and FBI. My list is up to 13 that are really nagging
at my gut. The list will probably grow.
1. What were the contents of the original warrant, now sealed, that
the BATF obtained?
2. It is reasonable to believe that illegal firearms and/or ammunition
could not be flushed down the toilet. Therefore, a "no-knock"
raid could be ruled out. Prior to the initial assault on the
complex, did a single BATF agent and accompanying witness (without
a contingent of assault and news media personnel) attempt to knock
on the door of the Branch Davidian's complex and serve the warrant
in a manner prescribed by law?
3. On the day of the initial assault on the complex, BATF agents
were aware that several small children were inside the buildings.
In the ensueing gun battle, BATF agents fired into a building
known to contain children, killing at least one two-year old child.
Knowing children were present, why didn't the BATF have an
alternate plan and immediately retreat from the area close to
the complex and implement the alternate plan rather than opening
fire and jeopardizing the lives of the children in the building?
4. The FBI spokesman states that paper evidence indicates that
David Koresh and members of the Branch Davidians possessed over
$200,000 in firearms and ammunition. Did David Koresh and the
members of the Branch Davidians have a valid Federal Firearms
License, were they actively participating in the legal business
of selling/buying firearms and ammunition, and were any of the
weapons they had illegally possessed? Does this paper evidence
consist only of weapons purchased or does it include legally
dispossessed weapons.
5. After the original assault on the compound tragically failed,
a BATF spokeswoman stated "We were outgunned!". Yet, TV newscasts
of video tape filmed at the time of the incident show BATF agents
armed with MP-5 and AR-15/M16 rifles. Although unclear on the
video tape because of obstruction from full view by agent's
bodies, they also may have had AK-47 and SKS rifles. What type(s)
of firearms did the BATF agents have immediate access to at the
scene of the original assault on the complex?
6. Since there is no evidence to confirm anyone was inside the
complex involuntarily, why did the FBI treat it as a "hostage"
situation?
7. Along the same lines, why did the FBI use "psychological warfare"
techniques, including sensory overload, sleep deprivation, and
other disruptive techniques that would test the sanity of any
normal person rather than using techniques aimed at placing the
complex occupants into a calmer frame of mind?
8. Reports indicate several of the children inside the complex
were accompanied by their mothers. Since it is reasonable
to expect these mothers would have their children taken away
from them if they came out, why did the FBI expect the mothers
to just walk out and surrender themselves to the authorities?
9. Agents at the scene claim to have seen members of the Branch
Davidians setting fire to the complex. Branch Davidian members
who survived the inferno claim the fire was started when an
armored vehicle punched through the wall and knocked over a
lantern which was setting on a table. Video tape of the incident
does show an armored vehicle punching a hole in the wall and the
fire erupted almost immediately from the same general location.
Was the source of the fire the same room where the armored vehicle
penetrated?
10. FBI spokesmen are voicing the opinion that the David Koresh and
the members of the Branch Davidians committed mass suicide. Yet,
bodies are being discovered throughout the house and other areas
within the building complex. This seems to be counter to any
known mass suicides through history. What evidence does the FBI
have that a mass suicide pact existed?
11. FBI Director Sessions stated that the massive fireball shown on
the video tape was caused by the Branch Davidian's ammunition
and/or powder cache exploding. Yet, the fireball seems to be
more characteristic of the type created when compressed gas
or other highly volatile fuel source explodes. Was any evidence
found which would indicate the Branch Davidians had an ammunition
and/or powder cache which exploded to create this fireball? If so,
and if David Koresh and members of the Branch Davidians were
engaged in the legal business of selling/buying firearms, was the
amount determined to be excessively greater than one would expect
for someone engaged in such a legal business?
12. It is rumored that one FBI agent was extremely upset about critical
news media coverage and intentionally used an armored vehicle to
crush a reporter's car which had been left at the compound. Is
there any factual basis to this rumor and, if so, what charges will
be brought against the FBI agent who performed the act?
13. FBI Director Sessions states that, during the final assault on the
complex, "over 80 shots were fired at the vehicles." On the video
tape of the incident, you can hear the drone of the armored vehicles
engines. Yet, there is no sound of the sharp reports that one
would expect to hear if shots were fired. Also, there are no
indications of smoke and/or muzzle flashes appearing from the windows,
buildings or other structures in the video. Surely, these should be
evident if the Branch Davidians had fired on the armored vehicles.
Finally, the video tape does not show any indication of paint splatter,
sparks or other characteristic spray of material which should be
apparent if the Branch Davidians had fired upon the vehicles. Do
any of the armored vehicles which were brought in to pump tear gas
into the compound show evidence of fresh damage due to being hit by
shots from high-power rifles?
14. CS gas is considered to be a chemical warfare agent. The United
States has signed international treaties which prevent the use
of CS gas in warfare. If the United States could not morally use
CS gas against Saddam Hussein and his troops, why is it morally
acceptable to use the same agent against citizens of our own land?
15. On April 21, FBI spokesmen state that at least 3 bodies discovered
in the complex had bullet wounds to the head indicating they had
been murdered or had committed suicide. On April 22, the county
coroner claims he knows nothing about any bodies found with bullet
wounds to the head. Were any of the victims bodies found within
the burned out complex have bullet wounds to the head? | 5 |
6,022 | Net citizens!
This is a desperate try to save our last course in university.
We are writing a study about the Net, how it all started, about the people
living in it, however trying to explain the basics of how it all works.
That includes you, reader of this message.
We would be more than grateful if we could get your answers to the following
questions;
1. For how many years have you known that Internet existed?
2. How often do you use the Net? (occasions per month)
3. Whatfor? (hobby, in your profession, socialy...)
4. How do you access the Net? (university, profession, friends, private...)
5. Has the Net taken over roles that other media played before? (telephone,
newspapers, TV, girlfriend...)
6. What newsgroups/type of information do you take part of?
7. Male or Female?
8. Age?
If you have the time;
9. What's your future visions about the Net? Limits and/or possibilities.
10.How do you think/hope law and censorship will change over time ahead?
We also want to apologize for taking up so much bandwidth with this.
This request has been spread to 60 newsgroups, chosen at random, but,
you know how it is, term end is closing up, panic spreads.
Email address: fm91hn@hik.se or fm91pb@hik.se
Sincere Respect And May The Force Be With You All! | 5 |
6,919 | : The Branch Davidians were not violent and were not planning to start
: violence.
:
: When the BD compound was assaulted by the ATF the BD did fire back.
: But they agreed to a cease fire and they allowed the ATF to care for
: their wounded. The BD even released the ATF agents they captured. It
: is clear from the release of the agents and allowing the ATF medical
: attention that the BD were not looking for trouble.
This is the first I've heard of the BD capturing and releasing ATF agents.
Is there any more info about this? | 5 |
931 |
Here you give positive, accurate "facts" about what happened to the beduins
and the land:
After the creation of the State of Israel, 80 percent of the Negev
Bedouin were expelled to the Sinai or to Southern Jordan. The
10,000 who were allowed to remain were confined to a territory of
40,000 hectares in a region were annual mean precipiation was 150
mm - a quantity low enough to ensure a crop failure two years out
of three. The rare water wells in the south and central Negev,
spring of life in the desert, were cemented to prevent Bedouin
shepherds from roaming.
A few Bedouin shepherds were allowed to stay in the central Negev.
But after 1982, when the Sinai was returned to Egypt, these
Bedouin were also eliminated. At the same time, strong pressure
was applied on the Bedouin to abandon cultivation of their fields
in order that the land could be transferred to the army.
And now you say noone knows anything about what happened there:
No reliable statistics exist concerning the amount of land held
today by Negev Bedouin. It is a known fact that a large part of
the 40,000 hectares they cultivated in the 1950s has been seized
by the Israeli authorities. Indeed, most of the Bedouin are now
confined to seven "development towns", or *sowetos*, established
for them.
(the rest of the article is available from Elias Davidsson, email:
elias@ismennt.is)
So what you basically say is that "we know for sure that nothing good happens
there now, we know for sure that the beduins prospered before the Jews arrived
and that they were driven away by the Jews, noone on earth knows about
what the Jews did there."
Is that what you said? Could you proove any of the nonsense you wrote?
BTW, try asking beduins in Sinai how they mis the Israelis. Not to mention
that there are enough valotaring beduins in the IDF to have at least one full
brigade of them.
| 5 |
3,790 |
Watch the videotape carefully, the CNN coverage was fairly decisive.
The first fire starts in the Tower, this is three storeys high and there
is a flag to the right of it on the picture. The second fire starts
in another tower which is similar to the first only two storeys high.
The flag is on the left in the camera picture that shows this fire
starting.
Thus the camera pictures cleraly show the fire starting at two separate
locations. The FBI report a third. I was not able to verify it from the
videotape however someone else identified a fire shown to be starting behind
the small tower in the second (flag on left) camera angle.
The flames coming out of the building are yellow/orange. This is the
normal colour for carbon compounds burning. The flames were those of a
solid or confined liquid burning, not of a gas exploding.
The explosion that occurs mid way along the building is certainly not an
explosive though. The cloud itself is on fire. This would seem to
be most likely to be some sort of fuel oil store exploding rather than
the explosion of a magazine.
Depends entirely on how they were distributed. You would not be able
to identify ammunition rounds going off from video camera coverage
from a mile away. If and when the FBI release pictures from cmeras
on the armoured vehicles (which presumably exist) it might be possible to
get a clearer picture.
If anyone expects to see explosions hollywood style aka Rambo movies then
remember that in real life cars do not burst into flames when going over cliffs.
Just about the most you could expect would be to see the grenades
going off. Since the building was designed to be blast proof to some
extent it would be difficult to distinguish the grenades going off from
the collapse of the building due to the fire.
Paranoia.
You wouldn't beleive the FBI if they showed you a picture of Koresh himself
setting light to the place. Your mindset is such that you are simply
unable to accept as true anything that might suggest that a group of
heavily armed weapons fanatics might indeed be in the wrong.
The gun lobby can't accept that the B-D set light to the place because
that would mean that Koreh had murdered 17 children, that would mean that
their taking his account of the murder of 4 BATF agents would be even
less credible than it was to start with.
Koresh had 51 days to come out with his hands up and face a fair trial.
Instead he ordered the murder of everyone in the place.
| 5 |
4,766 |
This is historically incorrect. Early Zionist 'fighters' did indeed
target civilians. They made random attacks in Arab marketplaces,
killing innocent passers-by. Your assertion of the opposite is an
attempt to whitewash history. Anyone can read about the history of
the Zionist terrorists. A good book to start is the one by J. Bowyer
Bell, an expert in international terrorism. (His main interest is
Irish terrorism.)
AUTHOR: Bell, J. Bowyer, 1931-
TITLE: Terror out of Zion : Irgun Zvai Leumi, LEHI, and the Palestine
underground, 1929-1949 / J. Bowyer Bell.
PUB. INFO: New York : St. Martin's Press, c1977.
DESCRIPTION: xi, 374 p., [14] leaves of plates : ill., maps ; 24 cm.
SUBJECTS: *S1 Lohame herut Yisrael.
*S2 Irgun tsevai leumi.
*S3 Israel-Arab War, 1948-1949.
*S4 Jewish-Arab relations--1917-1949.
LC CALLNO: DS119.7.B382 1977
For completeness, Arab thuggery of the same period was also rampant,
and targeted chiefly Jewish civilians. Can anyone tell me what the
opposite of live and let live is? | 5 |
5,649 |
I'm no defender of the AEC, but it is worth noting that it is unfair to tar
that organization with the decidedly minority scientific views of its
former chairperson and one term Washington governor, Dr. Dixie Lee Ray.
Dr. Ray's political agenda is well-known and documented. Likewise, her
lack of objectivity in analysing scientific data is well-known.
jsh | 5 |
4,888 |
Hey dude you are making me paranoid! What an argument!!!
No, Frank Crary's arguments are based on the assumption that most people
are sane, normal people. tpg disproves this of gun owners. USEnet as a whole
disproves it of humanity as a whole.
We now have proof positive that guns don't make you safer. Buy a lot of
guns and you either get shot in the no knock raid or get the FBI to burn
down your house. See even in the paranoid mindset of tpg there are good reasons
to support gun control.
Cuddles 'n kisses | 5 |
2,763 |
The following news from Turan News Agency in Baku-Azerbaijan
is brought to you as a service of:
<Azerbaijan Aydinlig Association>
P.O. Box 14571
Berkeley, CA 94701
FAX: (804) 490-3832
Email: farid@mem.odu.edu
P L E A S E make a hard copy of the news available to an Azerbaijani near you!
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
H E A D L I N E S |
* THE NEW VICE-PREMIER PLANS TO INTENSIFY THE WORK ON THE ATTRACTION OF
WESTERN INVESTMENTS
* THE PROPOSAL TO SUMMON SPECIAL SESSION OF THE SUPREME SOVIET IS REJECTED
AGAIN
* THE PROSPECTS OF TRADE/ECONOMIC COOPERATION BETWEEN AZERBAIJAN AND ESTONIA
* AZERBAIJAN DOES NOT INTEND TO JOIN THE CIS COMMON ECONOMIC ZONE
* THE QUESTIONS OF GRANTING CREDIT TO AZERBAIJAN WILL BE DISCUSSED IN MOSCOW
* AZERBAIJAN WILL REPLY TO THE SECOND VARIANT OF TRILATERAL INITIATIVE BY 26
OF MAY
* THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE PROSECUTOR OF THE REPUBLIC OF AZERBAIJAN
* AZERBAIJAN'S PARLIAMENT INTENDS TO APPEAL TO RUSSIAN PARLIAMENT REGARDING
THE SIX ACCUSED SOLDIERS
* ARMENIANS ARE PREPARING MORE "KARABAKHS" ON THE NORTH CAUCASUS
* STATE ASSISTANCE FOR NATIONAL MINORITY DEVELOPMENT
* MEMORANDUM OF COOPERATION ON EXTRACTING OIL-GAS FIELDS OF AZERBAIJAN WAS
SIGNED
* ARMENIA TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE PROSECUTION OF SIX RUSSIAN SOLDIERS
* NEW PROVOCATIONS OF ARMED FORCES OF ARMENIA
* "UNOCAL" COMPANY WILL BUILD 50 HOUSES FOR REFUGEES IN AZERBAIJAN
* MANAT IS BEGINNING TO FALL IN VALUE
* THE DISCUSSION OF PARLIAMENTARY ELECTION BILL WILL LAST TILL MID JULY
* ISA GAMBAR SUGGESTS THAT AZERI-RUSSIAN PARLIAMENT COMMISSION FOR CLARIFYING
THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE CRIMINAL CASE BE CREATED
* WILL THE TRILATERAL INITIATIVE BE RUINED?
* FATE OF 645 MILLION TONS OF OIL WILL BE DECIDED THIS SUMMER
* THE SCIENTISTS-LAWYERS OF RUSSIA APPEALED TO THE PRESIDENT OF AZERBAIJAN
* ARMENIAN ARTILLERY CONTINUES FIRING ON AZERI DISTRICTS
* AZERI PRIME-MINISTER IS LEAVING FOR GREAT BRITAIN
THE NEW VICE-PREMIER PLANS TO INTENSIFY THE WORK ON THE ATTRACTION OF
WESTERN INVESTMENTS
BAKU (MAY 19) TURAN: Yesterday, Rasul Guliyev, the recently appointed
Vice-Premier of the republic, received the US ambassador in Azerbaijan,
Richard Miles. As "Azerbaijan" newspaper informs, the issue of attraction
of western investments in Azerbaijan was discussed in the meeting. In
particular, Gulyiev stated that western capital has to be investigated in
the most profitable spheres of manufacture. He also noticed, that the number
of the priority manufactures will be released from debts.
Guliyev also said that intensifying the activities of the American oil
companies will promote the strengthening of the American-Azeri relations.
THE PROPOSAL TO SUMMON SPECIAL SESSION OF THE SUPREME SOVIET IS REJECTED AGAIN
Baku (May 19) Turan: Yesterday, in the sitting of the Milli Mejlis,
the chairman, Isa Gambar, rejected the proposal of the deputy Arif
Rahimzade to summon a special session of the Supreme Soviet of Azerbaijan.
This written proposal to summon a session was signed by 130 deputates. But
the chairman said that the signatures were invalid and the proposal couldn't
be submitted for discussion.
Earlier, the leadership of the Milli Mejlis called the proposal to summon
a special session of the Supreme Soviet a coup attempt. But the deputy for
the Parliament, Rahimzade, doesn't consider that the deputates have the
objective of removing Milli Mejlis and its chairman from the power. It concerns the
serious analysis of the social, economic and foreign policy activity of the
republic's authority. Rahimzade said that the deputates for the Parliament,
ejected from their duties one year ago have the rights to express their opinion
on these questions.
The Supreme Soviet of Azerbaijan (340 deputates) was dissolved one year ago,
when it attempted to bring Ayaz Mutalibov back to the power.
The functions of S.S. were handed over to Milli Mejlis, consisting of 50
deputates (25 "democrats" and 25 "partocrates"). At that time "democrats" and
"partocrates" came to an agreement that Milli Mejlis wouldn't exist for a long
time and would be dissolved after parliamentary elections. At the same time,
the deputates ejected from their duties were guaranteed that they could summon
a session of the Supreme Soviet any time and went in for political activity out
of the Parliament. --0--
THE PROSPECTS OF TRADE/ECONOMIC COOPERATION BETWEEN AZERBAIJAN AND ESTONIA
Baku (May 19) Turan: The prospects of signing trade-economic agreement
between Azerbaijan and Estonia were discussed in the meeting of the Foreign
Minister Tofig Gasimov with the group of experts of the Ministry of Economics,
Minister of Foreign Affairs and Estonian Bank administration on May 18.
The group of experts is headed by Tikht Reiman, the chief of the Ministry of
Economics of Estonia.
The MIA of Azerbaijan informed Turan agency, that in their stay in Baku,
the delegation will also visit Ministry of Economics and National Bank of the
republic.--0--
AZERBAIJAN DOES NOT INTEND TO JOIN THE CIS COMMON ECONOMIC ZONE
Baku (May 19) Turan: Deputy prime-ministers of the republic, Vahid
Ahmedov and Abbas Abbasov declared that Azerbaijan wouldn't join the CIS
common economic zone.
Vahid Ahmedov considers that the CIS economic zone proposal to create a
common tax system contradicts independent economic policy of the republic.
According to Abbas Abbasov, the pact of cooperation proposals, submitted for
the discussion of the leaders of CIS states in Moscow on May 14, has a number
of unfavorable points for Azerbaijan.
Such announcements of two deputy prime-ministers sound sensational on the
background of the fact that the president of Azerbaijan and the chairman of
the Parliament noted the necessity of the republic on joining the CIS economic
zone.--0--
THE QUESTIONS OF GRANTING CREDIT TO AZERBAIJAN WILL BE DISCUSSED IN MOSCOW
Baku (May 19) Turan: Today, Azerbaijani delegation headed by the director
of the foreign relation department of the Ministry of Finance of the republic
along with the representatives of the National Bank will leave for Moscow to
hold consultation with Russian government on granting credit to Azerbaijan.
According to the preliminary information, the credit will be 50 billion rubles.
As press-centre of Ministry of Finance informed Turan's correspondent,
precise amount of the credit, conditions of its repay and a number of other
questions of mutual interest will be discussed in the course of the meeting in
Moscow. It is known that this credit will be mostly used for mutual settling
of industrial enterprises of Azerbaijan and Russia.
When the sides reach the agreement, it is proposed for signing by the end
of May.--0--
AZERBAIJAN WILL REPLY TO THE SECOND VARIANT OF TRILATERAL INITIATIVE BY 26 OF
MAY
Baku (May 19) Turan: On the measures for peace presented by Russia,
Turkey and the USA to Azerbaijan and Armenia, the representative of the
president of Azerbaijan in the talks on Nagorno-Karabakh, Asim Gasimov noted
that the plan was not seriously changed in comparison with the first variant.
"Just some comments to several points were added to the schedule by
insistence of the Armenian side. We do not intend to come back to the analysis
of the schedule, because we have given a positive answer to it on May 6",- said
Gasimov.
The representative of the president of Azerbaijan informed that they just
began to work on the examination of the commentary, and their answer would be
given as requested by the authors of trilateral initiative by May 26.
As it is known, the first variant of the peace measures was rejected by
Armenia, which put forward a number of pre-conditions for its acceptance.--0--
THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF THE PROSECUTOR OF THE REPUBLIC OF AZERBAIJAN
BAKU (MAY 20) TURAN: The Azerbaijani prosecutor's office has announced
that the Russian mass media's attempt to portray the 6 Russian soldiers
condemned by the military board of the Azerbaijani Supreme Court, as innocent
people is unjustified.
Accounts of the witnesses and the confessions of the condemned themselves,
prove that their crimes were committed together with the Armenian military units
and with the knowledge of the headquarters of the Russian army unit, where they
served.
The announcement points out that the attempts to represent these soldiers
as ordinary mercenaries who have nothing to do with the Russian army are also
unfounded. For there are irrefutable evidences that these soldiers were on the
list of one of the military unit's of Russian commandos in Yerevan.
Certain Russian circles try to conceal the fact of direct participation of
the Russian army in the undeclared war of Armenia against Azerbaijan from the
Russian community. Azerbaijan's prosecutor's announcement follows, that this
type of actions can make the situation in the region much more complicated.--0--
AZERBAIJAN'S PARLIAMENT INTENDS TO APPEAL TO RUSSIAN PARLIAMENT REGARDING THE
SIX ACCUSED SOLDIERS
BAKU (MAY 20) TURAN: As Turan agency was informed, parliament of Azerbaijan
is considering the question of appealing to Russian parliament about the six
accused soldiers' fortune. In particular, the offer to send the representatives
of the Commission on military affairs of the armed forces of Russian Federation
to Baku for the detailed study of the results of six Russian soldiers' case will
be directed to Russian parliament.
According to one of the supporters of this offer, such initiative will give
Russian parliament the possibility to be convinced of the correctness of the
investigation. There will also be a chance to discuss the reasons that have
given rise to the present situation - that is the Russian troops participation
in the war against Azerbaijan.
ARMENIANS ARE PREPARING MORE "KARABAKHS" ON THE NORTH CAUCASUS
BAKU (MAY 20) TURAN: The National-liberation front founded by group of
Armenians living on the North Caucasus appealed to establish Armenian autonomies
on the territories of Rostov, Stavropol and Krasnodar regions, - reported the
newspaper "Russky vestnik" on March 9, 1993 published in Geneva.
The North Caucasus is regarded as an integral part of Armenia in the
documents of this organization. Admitting the non-realizability of "reunion" of
the North Caucasus and "Armenia proper" at present, the front is appealing to
the UN, presidents of Russia, Armenia and the United States to consider the
need to establish Armenian autonomies on the Caucasus.
To attain these goals, the Armenian organization considers it necessary to
carry out on the North Caucasus the forms and methods of activity "identical to
those in Nagorno Karabakh". Besides the decision to fund cells of Armenian
national-liberation fronts in every settlement and to appeal to leaders of
Armenian terrorist groups in Greece and Iran to sent to the North Caucasus
instructors for training of Armenian youth to wage secret wars was adopted.
Thus according to the newspaper "Russky vestnik", "new Karabakhs" are
being planning on the North Caucasus. --O--
STATE ASSISTANCE FOR NATIONAL MINORITY DEVELOPMENT
BAKU (MAY 20) TURAN: The meeting headed by the State secretary of
Azerbaijan, Ali Kerimov, with the participation of the national cultural
centers was held in Baku. The first results of the realization of the president
Elchibey's decree on state assistance for the development of language and
culture of national minorities adopted on September 16, 1992 were considered.
The State secretary called this decree as an important step to establish a
legal democratic state. He confirmed once more the commitment of the leadership
of Azerbaijan to set up a democratic society in which the rights of all
nationalities and ethnic groups would be respected.
The State Counsellor of the president of Azerbaijan on the national policy,
Hidayat Orujev, announced that in spite of the difficulties of the "undeclared
war" against the republic, the leaders of the state managed to solve many
problems concerning the satisfaction of cultural and other needs of the ethnic
groups.
For today, all 33 national-cultural centers registered by the Ministry of
Justice in the capital of Azerbaijan are provided with accommodation, furniture
and means of communication. All the accommodations are rent-free ( 8 foreign
diplomatic missions in Baku are placed in the hotels because of the absence of
free accommodations including the representation of the UN General secretary).
As it was noted, a great work was carried out since the decree was adopted
to create conditions for total development of the ethnic groups. On the North of
Azerbaijan where Lezghins live, a national Lezghin theater was opened,
radiocast is transmitted in Lezghin. The work over the creation of the
educational literature for Talyshs, Tats, Lezghins and Kurds and national
teaching and scientific staff is being carried out in the Academy of Sciences
of Azerbaijan.--O--
MEMORANDUM OF COOPERATION ON EXTRACTING OIL-GAS FIELDS OF AZERBAIJAN WAS SIGNED
BAKU (MAY 20) TURAN: As Turan agency was informed in the State
concern "Azerineft", the Memorandum of understanding with the companies
"AMOCO Caspian Sea Petroleum", "Bi-Pi Exploration Operating", "Pennzoil
Caspian", "Unocal Khazar Ltd.", "McDermott" and Turkish oil corporation on
mutual extracting of fields "Azeri", "Chirag" and "Gyuneshli" was signed.
According to the memorandum, the general group on preparing of a common
program of activity was created.
According to the president of "Azerineft", Sabit Bagirov, cooperation
will provide for using the experience of foreign companies more efficiently.
During the project, the main principles will be the effective use of
oil-gas resources, the rational sharing of investments, the reducing of
exploitation expenditures and maximizing the profit of Azerbaijan from the
exploitation of these fields.
The memorandum also envisions the necessity to take into account the historical
and political-economical interests of Azerbaijan under optimum use of oil-gas
fields. --O--
ARMENIA TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE PROSECUTION OF SIX RUSSIAN SOLDIERS
BAKU (MAY 21) TURAN: After Azerbaijani court passed sentence on
six Russian soldiers fighting on the Armenian side in Karabakh,
Armenian propaganda has become actively involved.
The Armenians living in Russia appealed to the president Yeltsin
with a request "to display firmness in asserting the rights of Russian
soldiers". At the same time, Armenian mass media call legal proceedings
on the case in Baku as "a farce aimed at getting more arms from Russia".
The Karabakh Armenians have issued a threat recently. If one could
believe the Yerevan agency "Snark", the Armenians in Karabakh presented
an ultimatum to authorities in Azerbaijan. The essence of this ultimatum
is that if Russian soldiers are not shown mercy, three Azeri prisoners in
Karabakh will be shot dead.
It is simple to explain such "touching attitude of Armenians" to
the six Russian soldiers' fate. If by chance the sentence is executed
it will cause not anti-Azeri but anti-Armenian reaction, as the accused
Russian soldiers were recruited in Yerevan by the former Defence Minister
of Armenia and then transferred to Karabakh.
If the soldiers get mercy, Armenian side will think highly of its
saving of lives of "innocent Russians". --O--
NEW PROVOCATIONS OF ARMED FORCES OF ARMENIA
BAKU (MAY 21) TURAN: According to the Defence Ministry of
Azerbaijan on May 20-21, the firing on the territories of Azerbaijan
from the military bases on the territory of Armenia was in progress.
The day before, the villages of Kolly-Gyshlag, Shotaraz,
Nyachaflar of Zangelan district of Azerbaijan were under fire from
Kafan district of Armenia. Two inhabitants were wounded, there were
destructions in the villages.
On May 20, the firing on the villages of Bashkend, Mutudere,
Shynykh, Novosaratovka and Novoivanovka of Kedabek district of
Azerbaijan from the positions of Armenian armed forces was in
progress.
At the same day the diversion group of the armed forces of
Armenia (50-60 men) violated the frontier of Azerbaijan, penetrated
into the territory of Kedabek district of Azerbaijan, killed two
shepherds at the village of Aili-Dara and made an attempt to take a
flock across the frontier. Azeri frontier-guards stopped the enemy.--O--
"UNOCAL" COMPANY WILL BUILD 50 HOUSES FOR REFUGEES IN AZERBAIJAN
BAKU (MAY 21) TURAN: As Turan agency was informed by the
representation of UNOCAL American oil company, the leaders of this
company decided to give 750 thousand dollars for the construction of
50 houses for refugees.
At present, the American side suggested a village project for
consideration by appropriate departments of Azerbaijan. The project
is a farm village where each house has a personal lot, subsidiary
accommodations and so on.
According to the program the construction and putting into
operation of the village will be this year. --O--
MANAT IS BEGINNING TO FALL IN VALUE
BAKU (MAY 21) TURAN: Lately, at the black market of Baku, the
national currency - Manat, fell in price compared with the Russian
Ruble. Thus one gives 1100 Rubles or 120 Manats for one US dollar.
Taking into account the official exchange-value of the Manat with
respect to Ruble which is 1-10, the national currency fell in value
10 percent. Meanwhile the exchange-value of the Manat to the Ruble is
the same at banks, state establishments and in trade.
According to the representatives of the business circles and
experts, the present situation is explained by the fact that the rubles
are bought by the local businessmen. They need rubles for financial
operations in Russia. As the remittance of payments from the republics
of the former USSR to Russia is a great problem now, many businessmen
arrange deals in cash. Taking into consideration the volume of business
with Russia, counted by billions, it is not hard to imagine how much
Rubles in cash the businessmen need. --O--
THE DISCUSSION OF PARLIAMENTARY ELECTION BILL WILL LAST TILL MID JULY
Baku (May 22) Turan: According to the president's decree, the
expert group, including representatives of the Parliament and
presidential apparatus, are working out new wording of the Constitution
of the Republic of Azerbaijan. This must be adopted by Milli Mejlis before
the Parliamentary elections. Together with this, the work on the new
Constitution, that would be, evidently, adopted by new Parliament of
the country, is going on. The newsmen were informed about the work on the
press-conference of the Supreme Soviet of the republic the day before.
Parliamentary legal experts, Safa Mirzoyev, Simran Hasanov and
representatives of the department of the president's apparatus Fazil Mustafaev
and Shahin Aliev took part in the press-conference.
The national discussion of the project of the Parliamentary
election law is going on at present. According to Simran Hasanov the bill
didn't cause any objections. It was noted, that until now, no alternative
variant of the election law was put forward.
The newsmen were also informed, that Parliamentary commissions
will examine all coming proposals till June 10. By June 15 all
proposals will be generalized and submitted for discussion in Milli Mejlis.--0--
ISA GAMBAR SUGGESTS THAT AZERI-RUSSIAN PARLIAMENT COMMISSION FOR
CLARIFYING THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE CRIMINAL CASE BE CREATED
BAKU (MAY 22) TURAN: The Chairman of the Milly Mejlis of the
Azerbaijan republic, Isa Gambar, sent the return letter to the Chairman
of the Russian Supreme Soviet Ruslan Khasbulatov in connection with
the conviction of the Russian servicemen lieutenant V.Semion, sergeant
K. Tukish, M.Lisov and A.Filipov by the military college of the
Supreme Court of Azerbaijan.
In his letter, Isa Gambar suggested that the commission of Azerbaijan
Milly Mejlis deputates on a par with the experts of the Russian Supreme
Soviet be established to clarify the circumstances of this criminal
case. In his view, "the conclusion of the commission could help in the
objective solving of this problem, as well as such kind of problems
in the future. But the main thing is, it could help to promote the
knowledge about involvement of the Russian servicemen in crime".
In its turn, in connection with the Russian parliament message,
Milly Mejlis adopted a resolution on May 19, according to which the
permanent commissions on government building and legal policy, human
rights and international relations are charged with the exploration of
this problem.--0--
WILL THE TRILATERAL INITIATIVE BE RUINED?
Baku (May 22) Turan: As Turan agency was informed, Russian representative
to the talks on Karabakh, Vladimir Kazimirov, doubted in realization of the
Trilateral initiative. He expressed this opinion during a telephone talk with
the representatives of Azerbaijan. At the same talk he declared, that in case
the peace process deadlocked, Russia would pursue Yeltsin's initiative itself.
Such statement from the Russian diplomat, who is one of the authors
of the Trilateral initiative, suggests that the Russian leadership is
paving the way for complete exclusion of the USA and probably Turkey from
the peacemaking process. This statement can also mean, that Russia and
US having achieved understanding on Bosnian problem, have agreed on partial
US departure from Transcaucasia.--0--
FATE OF 645 MILLION TONS OF OIL WILL BE DECIDED THIS SUMMER
Baku (May 22) Turan: The president of Azerbaijan State Oil Company,
Sabit Bagirov, declared recently that complete treaty on development of
oil fields Chirag, Azeri and Guneshli would be signed this summer.
As it is known, western oil companies AMOCO, BP-STATOIL, PENNZOIL-
RAMCO have an interest on development of these three richest Caspian
fields.
According to the plan, SOCAR and BP-STATOIL are to sign a complete
treaty on development of Chirag field on June 16. Later AMOCO and
PENNZOIL will sign treaties.
Specialists value total reserves of these three fields to be 645
million ton. 310 million of them fall on Azeri field, 180 mln.ton
on Geneshli and 150 mln.ton on Chirag.
The exploitation of these fields is to last tens of years and it is to
bring in Azerbaijan 100 billion dollars in revenue. In addition to the net
economic profit, Baku calculates upon the political support of the West in
the defence of its interests at the international scene.
As president Elchibey said in his closest encirclement "the May of
1993 will be one of the most difficult periods for Azerbaijan and its
independence and we have to stand these tests".--0--
THE SCIENTIST-LAWYERS OF RUSSIA APPEALED TO THE PRESIDENT OF AZERBAIJAN
BAKU (MAY 22) TURAN: As the press-service of the president of Azerbaijan
informs, today, the appeal of the Institute of the Government and law of the
Russian Academy of Sciences to president Elchibey was received.
The appeal contains the call "to display mercy, humanism and clemency
on the death sentences of the former servicemen of the Russian Armed
Forces".
The authors of the appeal point out, that they don't justify the
participation of the Russian servicemen in the war against the azeri people,
don't call in question the lawfulness of the passed sentence, denounce
the mercenary according to the UN principals, and they are sorry about the
Russian servicemen being drawn in such grave crime.
At the end of their letter, scientists, mentioning the soldiers'
mothers' tears and grief, their praying day and night of safety, ask the
president of Azerbaijan to "save those guys".
It should be noticed, that unlike lawyers, soldiers' mothers,
taking part in the inquiry, called the cause of their grief only
Russian policy. According to their words, the leaders, that lay down
lives of Russian men to achieve their political aims, must be made
answerable.
Unfortunately, the appeal didn't mention the grief of the mothers
of Azerbaijani soldiers, killed by sentenced Russian servicemen.--0--
ARMENIAN ARTILLERY CONTINUES FIRING ON AZERI DISTRICTS
BAKU (MAY 22) TURAN: On May 22, two soldiers of National army of
Azerbaijan were killed during the "Grad" shelling of the villages of
Kolly Gyshlag, Shaifly, Shotaraz, Nyachaflar of Zangelan district of
the republic from the territory of Kafan district of Armenia.
The night before and in the morning of May 22, the villages of
Tovuz, Gazakh and Gubatly districts of Azerbaijan were under fire
from the territory of Armenia. There are destructions.
The situation in Agder district of Azerbaijan became complicated.
On May 21, the enemy fired on the regional centre of Agdere from the
village of Ortakend. The transportation of man power and military equipment
to this district is in progress. According to reports the enemy is setting
up a new weapon emplacement to fire on the regional centre and near by
villages.
According to the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the concentration
of man power and military equipment is observed in Krasnoselsky
district of Armenia which borders on Azerbaijan as well as on the
frontier with Fizuli district. --O--
AZERI PRIME-MINISTER IS LEAVING FOR GREAT BRITAIN
BAKU ( MAY 22 ) TURAN : The Minister of Foreign Economic Relations,
Rauf Garayev, in his interview to Turan agency said, that
"Great Britain is the biggest foreign economic partner of Azerbaijan
after Iran". The business cooperation between the two countries
develops in such spheres as oil - industry, the manufacture of oil
extraction equipment, communication and agriculture.
According to the Minister's words, the forthcoming visit of
Azerbaijani Prime-Minister, Panah Huseynov, to Great Britain on May
23-24, is very important. It is expected, that the visit will
help, to solve the problems of opening in Azerbaijan the branch
offices of some British banks, insurance firms; to conclude
contracts on the sphere of manufacture of agricultural equipment; on
building in Azerbaijan off shore oil platforms, and reconstruction of the
entire communication system of Azerbaijan.
In Garayev's view, the expansion of the cooperation with Great Britain
will have a great political meaning for Azerbaijan.
According to politicians and reviewers in Baku, at present, Great
Britain as an European state is close to Azerbaijan. The continuation of
the economic and political cooperation of the two states is foreseen. --O--
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T U R A N N E W S A G E N C Y
Baku - Azerbaijan
Phone: (8922) 66-7977 66-7833
Fax: (8922) 66-2009
Telex: 142168 META SU
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Serdar Argic | 5 |
1,644 | Rejoice! The Streets of Amerika are much safer now that the Branch
Davidians no longer have those nasty assault weapons. Your children will
no longer lie awake at night wondering when the next Brand Davidian will
attempt to shoot them from their rural compound.
Men, women, and children have been murdered by our great BATF, but the
greater good has been secured for all. | 5 |
670 | A friend recorded CNN news during the gassing and incineration of
the BD's. I went through it carefully today, and found something
very interesting. A tank is pulling out of the house, and there
is a fireball, maybe 24" across that lasts for about 1 second.
Exactly ten minutes and thirty nine seconds later, the smoke starts
billowing out of that area of the building.
Now, I'm no govt. spokestwinkie, so it might really have been a
weather balloon or something. Perhaps someone would check it out
and comment.
| 5 |
5,712 | It is all so changed by now. but in case any of you is
interested in what I actually said, I never compared the
Israeli treatment of the palestinians with the Holocaust.
Anyway that is the truth if it matters. I was about to forget
about it myself since everyone started calling me anti-semitic
for making the comparison that I never made. What I did say was
that the Nazis didn't start with the Holocaust and their
initial actions were similar to what the Israelis are doing now.
The Jews that were stranded on the polish border since
no country accepted them are like the arabs stranded on the
lebenese border. No trials, no hearing, just expulsion based on
guilt due to race.
| 5 |
5,377 |
This is such Bullshit. Deir Yassin was an unprovoked attack on
the part of the Jews, and a massacre defines it best in my
opinion. The village of Deir Yassin had had a pact with the
Jews, a peace pact, but the Irgun purposely broke this
agreement in order to scare off the Palestinians. I might
grant that this village housed armed Arabs [I doubt it] but
nothing in the archives and available literature indicates that
this was a motivating force amongst the Irgun. The Deir Yassin
MASSACRE was part of an over all strategy to intimidate the
Palestinians to flee the Jewish Homeland.,...and contrary to
your belief, many civilians were killed. Deir Yassin was later
advertized by the very Jews who perpetrated it because it was
useful in getting many Palestinians to leave. The Palestinians
were rightfully scared off, because they did not want another
Deir Yassin.
I'm not necessarily condemning the Israelites here;
atrocities were aslo committed on the part of the Arabs.
Israelophiles should just be careful in thinking that they are
and were the good guys in the middle east. Both Arab and Jew
suck equally.
rj3s, you say that there is no evidence that what motivated the Irgun
to attack Dir Yassin was its strategic importance. In fact, Begin,
who was in charge of the Irgun, wrote that Dir Yassin was attacked for
its military significance.
Dir Yassin was merely a battle in the War of Liberation. People died.
But the thing was never intended to be a masacre. That this hapenned
is a tragedy of war - not a crime of the Irgun. | 5 |
6,775 |
I see that I misphrased my question. I should have asked WHICH
full-autos Kratz can accurately distinguish from semi-auto
look-alikes. I should have also included some semi-auto only guns in
my list to see if he'd ask how to distinguish them from their
non-existent full-auto "relatives".
Let's do the former now. Kratz has claimed that he can visually
distinguish full-autos from semi-autos. For which full-autos is he
making that claim? How does he do it? Let's get specific, and as
exhaustive as possible.
Maybe? Why is Kratz asking about what he told us that he knows?
Is Kratz certain that he can distinguish a three position switch from
a two position switch via TV inspection? (Does he even get to see the
switch in the typical police display of guns?) Note that one might
well be able to see this sort of thing in a hands on visual inspection
even though it won't be seen on TV. And to think that Kratz was
telling us that seeing it on TV was just as accurate as being
there....
Why all the questions? Kratz assured us that he could make this distinction
and now he's asking us how he did it....
What about it? It only demonstrates that, as I predicted, Kratz
was blowing smoke on this.
-andy wonders what Kratz is learning from this | 5 |
1,178 |
"Society" is impossible without some shared set of moralities, sense
of what is "god" and what is "bad" action and basic foundation of
something "universal".
| 5 |
2,691 |
Apparently you are unfamiliar with the history of the FBI. You might
try looking up articles from the 70's on the FBI's Cointelpro
operation for starters.
--
Dave Feustel N9MYI <feustel@netcom.com> | 5 |
1,943 |
[...]
The House Document Room can be reached at +1 202 225 3456. You need to
have the number of the document you want (e.g. HR1036) and they'll be happy
to send it to you. Tell them if it's going to be a big stack, because the
surly sounding guy who answers is scrawling in a really awful hand on the
back of the envelope that will come and will run out of room quickly if
you don't tell him.
The Senate document room is too important to deal with the likes of you
and I, and will answer requests from off the hill only by mail.
| 5 |
2,903 |
That's right. Despite claims that someone at Kent State fire a shotgun
at the the soldiers, the only projectiles that anyone can prove where
sent in the direction of the soldiers were rocks. | 5 |
4,061 |
Did anyone notice any helicopters equipped with thermal imaging
equipment? They usually manifest themselves in a turret in the front
of the helo, or a sphere on top of the rotor with optical elements. | 5 |
2,760 |
Is that how the mind of a compulsive liar works? The scenario and
genocide staged by the Armenians 78 years ago in x-Soviet Armenia
is being reenacted again - this time in Azerbaijan. There are remarkable
similarities between the plots, the perpetrators, and the underdogs.
The stories of survivors of Karabag massacre:
69 year old Hatin Nine telling:
-''My Twin grandchildren were cut to pieces in front of my eyes. They told
me: We won't kill you. But the babies have to die in front of your eyes.''
72 year old Huseyin Ibrahimoglu:
- ''Our Turkish village in Khojalu Town was blown up in two hours.
Turks, you must die.''
28 year old Gulsum Huseyin:
- ''They bayonetted my 3 year old daughter in her stomach in front of
my eyes.''
Are these stories lies? Have the eye-witnesses been day-dreaming?
Were these stories forged by Turkish journalists in the region?
The nonsense of such a claim is clear from the writings of British
Journalists, too. Two days before we had quoted from a Sunday Times
article. They[British] reported the events in Karabag even before
Turkish journalists. What is more here are the pictures. Pictures
of people who were bayonetted, whose eyes were gouged, ears cut off.
Even the Armenian Radio couldn't claim these "lies." They are saying
"exaggeration." That means ''somethings'' have happened but the
situation is not as bad as reported. Perhaps that village of Khojalu
town was destroyed in 4 hours, instead of 2... Or Gulsum Huseyin's
3 year old daughter was bayonetted in her chest instead of stomach...
The massacre is clearly seen with all its dimensions. The effects of
this massacre on Karabag and environs cannot be reduced by any word.
Some of the western press', led by some French Newspapers, ability
to ''close their eyes'' is nothing but complicity in this massacre.
Yesterday we gave samples from Le Figaro. Until yesterday's print
no news about the real events in Karabag were printed. So were the
French TV channels.. The subject they considered related to Karabag
was ''The necessity of protecting Armenians against Azeri attacks.''
The age we are living in is termed a human rights age. There are lots
of organizations such as United Nations and CSCE(Conference on Security
and Cooperation in Europe), and rules, all designed to fight against human
rights violations. International reactions must be made with international
cooperation. With support of everybody and every organization claiming
to be civilized.
Could there be a more serious human rights violation than that of the
right to live -and with such levels of barbarity and cruelty-? Where
is the cooperation? Where are the reactions? And the intellectuals,
journalists, writers, TV stations of certain western countries such
as France who are fast to claim leadership of "human rights?"
Where are you?
Serdar Argic | 5 |
1,247 | I appeal to to all of you to show up in Washington DC. this saturday to
participate in a peaceful demonstration for the sake of humanity!! This is a
critical point in the history of world and we can make a change otherwise things
will not change there in Bosnia.. Rapes/killings/ethnic cleansing will
go on as a norm in the days to follow. The UN will get to the towns after the fall
of thousands of inocent civilians (like in Zapa just the past weekend!). It happened
to the Jews in 1940's, it's happening to the muslims today and who will be the next
victim??
Since the Europeans want to remain indifferent in this issue, time has come for US to
take a leadership role to stop these crimes against humanity. Time is now and
this is for real folks, the people of New England Bosnian Relief Committee seriously believe
that Clinton's Adminstration will stop supporting the Bosnian cause without sustained
public pressure. I just called Democaratic Sen. John Kerry's office and they are saying that
he (the senator) is waiting for president to take a decision, means that he will wait and
join the band-wagon later if it ever moves!
Please don't rely on others to take part in this demonstration -You as an individual
will make a big difference. Bring your families too, not only you will help a great
cause but also it will be fun for all. I know of several families from Massachusetts
who are travelling friday night to participate there. Contact the local Islamic center
or Bosnia relief agency if you want to travel by pre-arranged busses. The best option
for students is to rent-a-car and car-pool. Please, spread the word around...
Regards,
Khalid Chishti
If you live in Massachusetts and want more info:
Call Ginan (from New England Bosnian Relief Committee): 617-623-1973
OR
New England Bosnian Relief Committee phone no: (617) 464-0111
| 5 |
1,347 |
Well, does it change the fact that during the period of 1914 to 1920,
the Armenian Government ordered, incited, assisted and participated
in the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people because of race, religion
and national origin?
Between 1914 and 1920, 2.5 million Turks perished of butchery at the
hands of Armenians. The genocide involved not only the killing of
innocents but their forcible deportation from the Russian Armenia.
They were persecuted, banished, and slaughtered while much of Ottoman
Army was engaged in World War I. The Genocide Treaty defines genocide
as acting with a
'specific intent to destroy, in whole or in substantial part, a
national, ethnic, racial or religious group.'
History shows that the x-Soviet Armenian Government intended to eradicate
the Muslim population. 2.5 million Turks and Kurds were exterminated by the
Armenians. International diplomats in Ottoman Empire at the time - including
U.S. Ambassador Bristol - denounced the x-Soviet Armenian Government's policy
as a massacre of the Kurds, Turks, and Tartars. The blood-thirsty leaders of
the x-Soviet Armenian Government at the time personally involved in the
extermination of the Muslims. The Turkish genocide museums in Turkiye honor
those who died during the Turkish massacres perpetrated by the Armenians.
The eyewitness accounts and the historical documents established,
beyond any doubt, that the massacres against the Muslim people
during the war were planned and premeditated. The aim of the policy
was clearly the extermination of all Turks in x-Soviet Armenian
territories.
The Muslims of Van, Bitlis, Mus, Erzurum and Erzincan districts and
their wives and children have been taken to the mountains and killed.
The massacres in Trabzon, Tercan, Yozgat and Adana were organized and
perpetrated by the blood-thirsty leaders of the x-Soviet Armenian
Government.
The principal organizers of the slaughter of innocent Muslims were
Dro, Antranik, Armen Garo, Hamarosp, Daro Pastirmadjian, Keri,
Karakin, Haig Pajise-liantz and Silikian.
Source: "Bristol Papers", General Correspondence: Container #32 - Bristol
to Bradley Letter of September 14, 1920.
"I have it from absolute first-hand information that the Armenians in
the Caucasus attacked Tartar (Turkish) villages that are utterly
defenseless and bombarded these villages with artillery and they murder
the inhabitants, pillage the village and often burn the village."
Serdar Argic | 5 |
867 |
James, it could be that they were determined to stay together in the compound
no matter what happened. Perhaps the fire was accidental, and the DB simply
refused to leave the compod. Perhap they died fighting the fire? who knows.
we will have to wait and see. i persaonlly find it hard to believe that they
would all agree to burn themselves up! what a horrible way to go. | 5 |
2,075 |
If there was a large propane tank, and it was breached, don't
you think that there would be an identifiable explosion?
Further, the BD members have as much reason to lie as the
Gov't.
They'd only autopsied one body when this information was released.
I wouldn't doubt though
The only evidence that exists right now (at least what we know
about) is various claims and counter claims. I'm waiting until
the hard evidence is released. What about you?
_____ _____
\\\\\\/ ___/___________________
Mitchell S Todd \\\\/ / _____/__________________________
________________ \\/ / mst4298@zeus._____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_'_/
\_____ \__ / / tamu.edu _____/.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'.'_'_/
\__________\__ / / _____/_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_'_/
\_ / /__________/
\/____/\\\\\\
\\\\\\ | 5 |
441 |
Hey, Clayton, it's me again! I just love your arguments. They completely
clinch each and _every_ one of your points!
But then again, that, I suppose, says a lot about how screwed up your are.
Hehe. I haven't had so much fun since I started blasting christians in alt.atheism!
| 5 |
1,613 | 5 | |
3,255 | The following announcement is from the Bosnia Task Force, USA.
Yusuf Islam (formerly Cat Stevens of London) and Muhammad Ali
(former heavyweight champion) will be the grand marshals of
the Washington rally on Saturday, May 15, 93
-------------------------------------------
Twenty to Twenty Five thousands are expected to march
demanding an end to genocide in BOSNIA
Rally will begin 1pm from Lafayette Park in front of White House
----------------------------------------------------------------
In the largest planned rally ever by Muslims in America, the Bosnia Task
Force, USA has called upon all Muslims in the USA to hold rallies
through out the USA. Muslims in 400 miles radius are, however, requested
to come to Washington D.C. for a rally in front of the White House.
The rally will start sharp at 1pm on May 15, 93 in front of the White House and
will March to Capitol Hill. All are requested to be in Lafayette park by noon.
It is going to be a big rally. More than 20,000 persons are expected to
participate. New York is targeting 50 buses. People as far as Texas and Arizona
are coming. Never in Washington's history have so Many Muslims have marched
before. Are you ready for this historical event? Call every one you know to
bring them to rally.
Our Demands:
------------
1) Recognize the genocidal nature of the Milosevic regime and its aggression.
2) Lift the arms embargo from the Bosnian government.
3) provide the Bosnian government with arms for self-defence.
4) Use NATO air power to enforce the will and conscience of the World community
on Serbia.
5)Begin the War Crime tribunals immediately.
IF YOU ARE NOT PART OF THE SOLUTION, YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM!
Members of the Bosnia Task Force, USA:
ISNA, ICNA, Ministry of Imam W. Deen Mohammed, The National Community,
Bosnia Action Committee of Chicago, Majlis Shura New York, American
Muslim Council, Michigan Islamic Council, Balkan Muslim Association.
Phone: (312) 829-0087 Fax: (312) 829-0089
------------------------------------------------------------------------ | 5 |
1,181 |
STOP IT!!!! ENOUGH!!! I'm out of there! I mean, I'm a relatively sane person.
God knows I'm weak and will forgive me. But I'm not stupid enough to stay in
this place any longer. I WANT OUT!!!
Yeah, and at least one person ran back in. SOunds like a personal choice to me.
Religious fanaticsm, and a beleive that dying in the 'defense' of your beliefs,
is probably at the core of what happened in Waco. We in the west tend to
disregard fanaticsm of the type displayed by many Moslem fundamentalist groups
who see nothing wrong with dying for their beliefs/convictions. I suspect that
this same type of fanaticsm was displayed by the BDs. BUt we'll probably never
know... | 5 |
5,242 |
No one is forced to blow up airplanes. Terrorism is a choice
made by people because they do not want to work for peace.
There are *lots* of military targets in Israel. There are
lots of legitamate targets in Israel. Old ladies, children, and
civilians in general are not acceptable targets.
If the only person you can kill is a civilian, you hold your
fire. If that means you can't kill anyone, then you can't kill
anyone. Claiming that civilain targets are acceptable because they
are easy kills is rediculous.
Did they make a policy of it?
Did you mean excuse? :) Killing a soldier and killing a
civilian are two very different acts.
No, they killed soldiers so that the British government would
leave. The objective was not to scare civilains, but show that the cost
of staying was way too high.
In contrast, a terrorist kills civilains to scare other
civilains. They use random violence against people to make a point
that no one is safe until their demands are met. An analogy would be
the Irgun blowing up Harrods or 10 Downing.
Thats because you missed the essential point of arab
terrorism, which is to scare civilains away from Israel, by killing
those who have something to do with Israel. It is to kill Jews
because they might be Zionists. It is to kill people who live in
Israel because of where they live. The targets are rarely soldiers,
or other people who understand they might be attacked in the line of
duty, but innocent civilians, to underscore the message that no one
who deals with Israel is safe.
Oh, you mean you favor the Israelis, outnumbered 2 to 1,
outgunned, surrounded by hostile states only one of which has signed a
peace treaty in 45 years? You favor the Jews, people like Leon
Klofhinger, a cripple who was thrown off a boat because he was Jewish?
You support the right of the Jewish people to live in peace?
Why, thank you for your support.
Adam
Adam Shostack adam@das.harvard.edu | 5 |
1,422 | It seems that, to keep the peace talks going, Israel has to keep
making goodwill gesture after goodwill gesture, while Palestinian
Arabs continue to go around hunting Jews.
If the peace talks are going to have any realistic chance of success,
the Arabs are going to have to start reciprocating, especially since
they are the ones who will be getting tangible concessions in return
for giving up only intangibles. If they keep trying to change the
already agreed upon rules, which seems to be one of their favorite
games, the Israelis are not likely to be very confident that the
intangibles they will receive at the bargaining table will be worth
the parchment they're written on.
It takes two to negotiate a peace. It's time for the Arabs to start
doing their share.
| 5 |
5,364 |
If you _know_ that the number is "so high", would you care to provide it?
To tell you the truth, Hamid, most of those killed by the Israeli Army were
agressors who were invading or attacking Israel with the intention of murdering
Jews and destroying the Jewish State. Thus, I have no sympathy for them and
I really don't give a damn about how many were killed.
| 5 |
1,246 |
+>Critisism is too easy. What solutions do people have that would have been
+>better than what the FBI had been doing for the last few months?
After the seige began:
Surround the place with Razor wire and then let them sit. Do not
have daily press conferences, do your best to keep things out of
the press.
As things get more and more miserable inside, one of two things is
going to happen:
1. People will start coming out.
2. They will commit suicide in mass at some point.
The thing to remember about (2) is that hysterical situations and "assults"
play into the hands of a "leader" who has picked this course. Its
much easier to stampede people into something like suicide if there
is gas coming in and bullets in the air. Let them be hungry and miserable
for longer and longer and it will probably be more effective.
The "possiblity" that they would all kill themselves at some
point would not bother me in the least or alter tactics. If people
are going to take their own lives, the best you can probably do is
prevent yourself from giving them the opportunity or an excuse to
do it. | 5 |
1,370 |
This whole thread is rediculous. Who cares if they had a stove going
or not. Does it matter if they had a stove burning, or lanterns
burning, or candles burning, or someone smoking, etc, etc, etc. The
premise is that the FBI was filling the house with napalm so that it
would catch fire. This is crazy. FBI was NOT PUMPING NAPALM into the
Davidians home. You will have to have pretty damn strong evidence to
convince me of that.
I can believe mass suicide/murder by Koresh. I can believe an
accident by the Davidians. I can believe an accident by the FBI. I
can easily believe mass stupidity on all sides but I can not believe
that the FBI lit this fire intentionally. No way.
| 5 |
513 | #Really? I thought that insurance companies hired all of
#their actuarial staffs to determine the risks correlated
#with all groups of people, and that gays are more likely
#to have AIDS than are those of other sexual orientations.
Correlation != causality.
The risk factor is having non-monogomous unprotected sex, not being
homosexual.
| 5 |
3,283 |
Granted. Pomeroy, Bell, Weinberg, 1967. "National Institute of
Mental Health Paper 12353, ''Patterns of Adjusment in Deviant
Populations.''" Cited as part of the National Institute of Mental
Health Task Force on Homosexuality.
Pomery concluded, "The Kinsey statistic of 37% is probably higher
than is realistic. According to these estimates, 33% is a more
realistic figure."
(I went out and bought LOTS of Bell & Weinberg this weekend... can
you tell?)
Also, The Janus Report on Sexual Behavior (Samuel S. Janus, Ph.D.
and Cynthia L. Janus, M.D., John Wiley & Sons (pub), 1992) has the
following:
Table 3.14
Have you ever had a homosexual experience?
Men. Women.
N= 1,335 1,384
Yes 22% 17%
No 78% 83%
Table 3.15
How often have you had homosexual contact?
Men Women
N= 294 235
a. Once 5% 6%
b. Occasionally 56% 67%
c. Frequently 13% 6%
d. Ongoing 26% 21%
Active (c. + d.) 39% 37%
39% of 22% is 9%. This number is consistent with Kinsey, Pomery,
Gebard (1953), Bell & Weinberg (1967, 1974), and Rice (1987) in the
finding that 9% of the male population is actively homosexual, with
an further breakdown (Bell & Wienberg, 1978) of 4% exclusively so and
5% self-identifying themselves as "bisexuals."
(pp 69, 70)
As for debunking Kinsey, the following article is an important
lesson for everyone to read:
Was Kinsey a Fake and a Pervert?
by Philip Nobile
Far out on the grassy knoll of sexology, there is a cult of
prochastity researchers who claim that the late Alfred Kinsey was a
secret sex criminal, a Hoosier Dr. Mengele, who bent his numbers
toward the bisexual and the bizarre in a grand conspiracy to queer the
nation and usher in an era of free sex with kids.
But what really riles these critics is Kinsey's towerin~ cultural
influence. His bestselling surveys-- Sexual Behavior in the Human Male
(1948) and Sexual Behavior in the Human Female (1953)-- tore the
sheets off the country's erogenous zones and undermined midcentury
morals. His charts and graphs, based on detailed histories of 12,000
men and women, demonstrated that practices generally considered rare
and/or 'abnormal'-- masturbation, extramarital relations,
homosexuality, and even barnyard bestiality, were as American as
strawberry shortcake.
Yet for a hard core of these heterosexual supremacists, aided and
abetted by Pat Buchanan and the religious right, the zoology professor
from Indiana University remains the evil genius behind the sex
revolution and a target for character assassination.
Judith Reisman, the prosecution's expert witness at the
Mapplethorpe trial in Cincinnati, is the leader of the anti- Kinsey
revisionists as well as his Inspector Javert. In 1983, during a radio
interview with Pat Buchanan in Washington, Reisman accused Kinsey of
having been inolved in "the vicious genital torture of hundreds of
children." She speculated that he kidnapped and drugged ghetto boys in
order to carry out clandestine orgasm tests.
Now, seven years later, Reisman has revived her charges in a
different book, titled Kinsey, Sex and Fraud, just released by the
small and religiously oriented Huntington House in Lafayette,
Louisiana. Her coauthor is Ed Eichel, a Manhattan psychotherapist who
has invented a new style of intromission ("the coital alignment
technique") that supposedly triggers simultaneous orgasm with
considerable regularity and thereby increases compatibilty between the
sexes. In the book Eichel contends that "Kinsey deliberately cooked
the gay stats because, being an oddball himself, he wanted to advance
the 'denormalization' of heterosexuality."
If the authors are right, then the world- famous Kinsey Reports
are, as the introduction boldly asserts, "the most egregious example
of scientific deception in this century." And if they are wrong,
Kinsey, Sex and Fraud is a shameful smear.
Despite the less- than- stellar credentials of Kinsey's
detractors, legends are not what they used to be. Martin Luther King
may have committed plagiarism. Bruno Bettelheim slapped young mental
patients around. Father Bruce Ritter, the founder of Covenant House,
preyed on runaway boys. Closer to Kinsey, Masters and Johnson have
been disgraced for faking it in one way or another.
So it should not surprise anybody that Kinsey, who filmed strange
people having sex in his attic, may have had skeletons in the closet.
The problem is that Reisman does not seem to have the intellectual
prowess to pull off the job.
As a thinker, the woman is no Madame Curie. The 55-year-old
former songwriter for Captain Kangaroo has little professional
standing, no current university position, and no peer-review
publications, though her creative 1983 resume was padded with phantom
accomplishments. For instance, it listed a book as her own-- Take Back
the Night: Women on Pornography-- that was actually written and edited
by others. Then there is her Ph.D. in Speech Communication from
Cleveland's Case Western Reserve University. Although Reisman has no
bachelor's degree, Case granted her a master's in 1976 and a doctorate
in 1979. Her dissertation was on the commentaries of a local
octagenarian TV commentator. But on the resume, Reisman gave this
piece of scholarship a fancy Hautes Etudes moniker-- to wit: "The
Application of Aristotelian and Systems Analytic Theory to Mass Media
Effects."
When Reisman burst into prominence on Buchanan's program, it was
love at first sight for Al Regnery, the outwardly anti-
porn head of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention in Ed Meese's
Justice Department. Regnery was a young law-and-order conservative and
amateur social philosopher who wanted to help change the sexual
climate of the United States.
After Reisman's sensational radio session, the sexual equivalent
of Joe McCarthy's Wheeling speech, Regnery summoned
her to meetings to discuss mutual interests. First he tried to shovel
her $800,000 for a quasi-Frankenstein study that was going to measure
the brain chemicals of men and boys who looked at arousing
photographs. Guffaws on Capitol Hill killed the original proposal, but
$734,000 in govemment money went to Reisman anyway for plan B- a probe
of child images in the cartoons Playboy, Penthouse, and Hust
ler. (Incredibly, this grant surpassed the entire budget of the
attorney general's pornography commission.)
When the overpriced and oversold project was completed in 1986,
it was immediately shelved by an embarrassed Justice Department. That
spring, Regnery resigned from his post only days before the New
Republic carried this admission that he had kept porno magazines
around the house.
Notwithstanding the six-figure humiliation, Reisman went on to
scratch out a niche on the ioony right. As the darling of the sex
cranks, she deplores subversive phenomena like shaved genitalia in
men's magazines and blames AIDS on gays. Kinsey, Sex and Fraud is
Reisman's latest grasp for respectability. Pat Buchanan, of course, is
putting his Krugerrands on Reisman's ultimate vindication. "This book
is social dynamite," he says in a blurb an the front cover. He
especially liked the antigay parts. Smacking his lips in his
syndicated column, he declared, "It may just blow the sewer cap off
Kinsey's monumental reputation, reestablish homosexuality as a 1-in-50
aberration, expose the Gay Rights movement as a paper tiger, and even
put at risk the enormous sex industry built upon Dr. Kinsey's
'research.'"
The blockbuster charge at the heart of the cluttered and
repetilive j'Accuse is that Kinsey was a sex-mad pedophile who
molested little boys in Nazi-type experiments and recorded their
orgasms in his male volume/ A similar charge was first recited at the
Fifth World Conference on Sexology in Jerusalem in 1981 to no effect
before being recycled by Reisman for Buchanan in Washington in 1983.
Here is how Reisman and Eichel repackaged the Mengele business in
Kinsey, Sex and Fraud:
Mengele-like 'scientific' experiments on infants and children
were the basis for Kinsey's conclusions... on childhood sexuality.
Somewhere and sometime in the course of the project, Kinsey
appears to have directed experimental sex research on several hundred
children aged from two months to almost 15 years.
This, of course, would implicate Kinsey and his team in
promoting, and perhaps participating in, the criminal activity.
In the opinion of this book's authors, that is exactly how part
of Kinsey's child sexuality research took place.
Donning his psychohistorian's cap and citing an FBI manual on
child molesters as a guide, Eichel casually diagnoses Kinsey as a
homosexual pedophile with the perfect motive for doing exactly as
[Kinsey] placed himself in professional and nonprofessional
positions where he had access to young boys, such as Y.M.C.A. camp
counselor, boys' club leader, and Boy Scout leader-- activities he
kept up 'during his college and graduate yeaers, and even after his
marriage."
As crude as his analysis seems, Eichel was more than happy to
elaborate even further in a recent phone interview. "If you've ever
been around boy- lovers, pedophiles, they are absolutely compulsive,"
he averred. "Everything in his life is directed at getting children. I
didn't mention this in our book but the caption under Kinsey's high
school picture was a quote from Hamlet: 'Man delights me not, no,
[sic] nor woman neither.' What do you think they were picking up on?"
Before weighing what Reisman and Eichel pass off as proof of
Kinsey's sex crimes, something must be said about Kinsey's scientific
modus operandi. He was a fiendish collector. As a young zoologist with
a D.Sc. from Harvard, he collected 4 million gall wasps and 1.5
million related insects. When he switched to sex exploration after
agreeing to teach a marriage Course at Indiana University in 1938, he
was no less curious or acquisitive. Nothing that mammals did in the
realm of reproduction was foreign to him. He compiled masses of erotic
materials including toilet wall inscriptions from male and female
johns that highlighted differences in sexual psychology and flms of
mating in 14 species of animals that showed an amazing similarity in
oral eroticism.
Naturally, the sexual response of children, the genesis of eros,
fascinated him. It was impossible to understand the sexual behaviors
of adults without examining their origins. And so with the fervor of
his bughunting days, Kinsey collected information about kids, though
even his worst enemies-- until Reisman and Eichel-- refrained from
linking him personally to his data on preadolescent sex.
Kinsey said plainly in the male volume that he got information on
the sex life of young boys from people who had sex with them: "Some of
these adults are technically trained persons who have kept diaries or
other records which have been put at our disposal." Although he
gathered much boyhood data from the memories of his subjects and the
observations of parents and nursery school teachers, he treated the
documentary materia! of the pedophiles as pure gold. There was nothing
like it in the literature.
Kinsey's main source, a 63-year-old govemment worker, was also
the most unforgettable character he had ever met. This man, whose
history took 17 hours to log, had sex with over 600 boys and 200 girls
as well as 17 of 33 family members including his father and
grandmother. A sexual hobbyist and passionate record-keeper, he gave
Kinsey detailed accounts of orgasms that he observed in preadolescent
boys. Relying on the man's meticulous research, which involved
following some boys for as long as 16 years, Kinsey was able to
identify for the first time six distinct types of male orgasm-- some
of which involved violent contortions at the peak of release-- as well
as the speed and the capacity of climax.
What Freud had only imagined about childhood sexuality, Kinsey
had reported as fact. Children were indeed erotic beings from the
cradle. "These data on the sexual activities of younger male provide
an important substantiation of the Freudian view of sexuality as a
component that is present in the human animal from earliest infancy,"
he concluded without raising eyebrows in 1948.
Then along came Judith Reisman. Ignorng the legitimacy of
Kinsey's inquiry, she beheld the ghost of Mengele in Bloomington. She
was appalled by the thought of infant ecstasy and read torture in the
portrayals of prepubertal orgasm rendered by the government worker.
And she dared to say that Kinsey was a sex criminal.
Well, was he or wasn't he? Let's go to the text. There is no
evidence in Kinsey, Sex and Fraud-- no witnesses, no paper, noteven a
trace of hearsay-- that implicates Kinsey in either planning or
partaking in child sex experiments. After 12 years on the trail,
Reisman has uncovered just two sources to back up her original charge-
- amazingly enough, Kinsey himself and Wardell Pomeroy, Kinsey's
coauthor on both reports, to whom Reisman has never spoken. It turns
out that her whole case rests on a few passages in the male volume
iand in Pomeroy's 1972 biography titled Dr. Kinsey and the Institute
for Sex Research.
After frisking every "the" and "and" in both books, Reisman came
up with what she believes are "smoking" sentences. To establish
Kinsey's alleged role in the planning, she says that "there is a hint"
in the fifth chapter of the male volume that Kinsey "directed" the
orgasm studies on kids. She cites his tell-tale quote from a critic of
armchair psychoanalysis demanding that "writers...test their
theories...by empirical study and statistical procedures." Then she
combines this quote with Kinsey's statement that some of the
observations of his pedophile sources "were continued over periods of
months or years until the individuals were old enough to make it
certain that true orgasm was involved."
Putting two and two together-- Kinsey's empiricism and lengthy
experimentation-- she arrives at her hint. But realizing this dog
would not hunt, she devoted but a single paragraph to Kinsey's
supposed planning before shifting to the issue of his personal
involvement. As for the alleged participation, after poring over
Pomeroy's biography, Reisman found several hidden clues suggesting
Kinsey's likely hands-on approach to kiddie sex. Here the chain of
reasoning is more complex. She points out that Kinsey was interested
in clitoral measurements, collecting sperm and filming sex in his
attic. Since Kinsey did indeed mislead Indiana University about the
purpose of his cinematography-- he said that he was filming "animal
sex"-- Reisman asserts that a "similar misrepresentation may yet apply
to Kinsey's child sex experiments." Catch the "may"!
Reisman was also struck by Kinsey's doubting Thomas attitude
toward the never before recorded climax of female rabbits: "Kinsey,
according to Pomeroy, was the type of person who needed to see things
for himself. Pomeroy gave the example of orgasm in the female rabbit.
Because he had not personally witnessed this event, Kinsey had
difficulty in accepting its reality, even on the strength of testimony
from a distinguished scientist. How then did Kinsey testify to the
actuality of orgasm in a 5-month-old infant from the mere 'history' of
a sex offender?" (But, of course, he did not: he depended on their
records.)
From this fantastic alchemy of conjecture mixed with clitorides,
sperm, attic cumshots, and climax-in-cottontail has Reisman defamed
the legendary Kinsey.
Paul Gebhard succeeded Kinsey as the director of the Kinsey
Institute and now lives in retirement outside Bloomington. Reached by
telephone, Gebhard defended the pedophile connection and denied
Reisman's nasty imputations. "I don't understand the resistance of
people like Reisman to studying the sexuality of children," Gebhard
said more in exasperation than anger. "That is where sex begins. We
were happy to take data wherever we found it. Even though pedophiles
commit criminal acts, they are usually not violent folks. They
wouldn't be very successful if they were. One of our best sources was
a headmaster of a boys' school who maintained a kind of alumni club
and sometimes went to the weddings of his former students. As for
directing experiments, that's absurd. We never told any of our
subjects what to do. lt was against our principles. Almost all of the
pedophile material was retrospective anyway. Nor did we ever conduct
sex experiments with children ourselves. That would have been highly
inappropriate."
I asked Gebhard if Kinsey had ever seen a child in a sexual
situation. "I think a mother once brought in a little girl who humped
her teddy bear and Kinsey watched it."
As for Kinsey's sex life, it is still shrouded in
confidentiality. He was married to the same woman for 35 years and
fathered four children. Apparently, there are no huge sexual
revelations, although rumors of homosexuality have persisted without
confirmation through the years. Gebhard took his boss's history back
in the '40s, but he refuses to discuss what he knows. "We never
divulge anything about anybody's history, whether dead or alive," he
says.
Reisman said no to an interview for this article on the grounds
that I had once worked for Penthouse-- not to mention the fact that we
have been debating each other in various forums for the past five
years. In keeping with our contentious history, she took a swipe at me
in her book for continuing "the Kinsey practice of euphemizing
incest." My offense was using the biblical variant "lying with a near
relative" in a 1977 article on the subject of incest. As a synonym for
intercourse, "lying with" appears eight times in Genesis.
Ed Eichel is a different story. Though seemingly obsessed by
Kinsey like his coauthor, he was friendly in long conversations. He
told me that he began to smell a big baised agenda in sexology when he
was a student in New York University's Human Sexuality program in the
early '80s. "It was literally a gay studies program for heterosexuals,"
he says.
Around 1985, Eichel came upon Reisman's critique of Kinsey and
the conspiracy theory started to sink in: the sex establishment was
ruled by a Kinseyan bisexual bund advocating the overthrow of the
heterosexual norm. No wonder he was having such a rough time promoting
the joy of simultaneous orgasm-- anything that enhanced sexual
compatibility between men and women inevitably raised objections.
Eventually, Eichel exchanged philosophical fluids with Reisman,
and from this union Kinsey, Sex and Fraud was born. Eichel's main
contribution to the book is discovery and analysis of a Kinsey
conspiracy that supposedly seeks "the establishment of bisexuality as
the balanced sexual orientation for normal, uninhibited people" which,
by destroying the traditional family structure and normal sexual
behavior, "would open the way for the second and more difficult step--
the ultimate goal of cross-generational sex (sex with children)."
When I pressed him for specific references to back up his
outrageous contentions, he said weakly, "You don't think Kinsey is
going to come right out and say that everybody is basically bisexual
and should have sex with kids, but this is implicit in the Kinsey
reports."
Meanwhile, Eichel is demanding a congressional investigation of
Kinsey and his data. Perfect. That's just what the country needs-- a
House Un-American Sexual Activities Committee, looking under beds and
asking people if they are now or have everbeen a reader, a sympathizer
or-- God forbid-- a subject of Dr. Alfred Kinsey.
Elf !!!
--
elf@halcyon.com (Elf Sternberg) | 5 |
336 |
Interesting that Janet Reno has publically announced that
we need steal ourselves for more Wacos. I wonder if I can
get the gasoline concession.
Yup. Kill that bastard!
Ah, yes. The ILLEGAL helicopter, searchign for the non-existent
PCP lab. I remember it well, even if the media ( and y'all ) tell
me I don't. Call me Winston.
Ahhh, yes. The "non-existent" canisters. Call me Winston again.
I did too, but for different reasons. The FBI has a habit of burning
up people in fortified areas.
Yup. Good. Dead. YEAH! Maybe Janet will do some more, just
like she's promis, er, WARNED us about.
Like I told y'all before. I would SERIOUSLY consider the following: | 5 |
587 |
Ofranko. Coming from a self-exposed historical revisionist, a
self-admitted anti-Muslim and a genocide apologist, Hamaza should
take your drivel as a compliment. Furthermore, you even deny the
obvious. There was a genocide of the Muslims carried out by order of
the fascist x-Soviet Armenian Government. Massacres of Muslims must be
studied in detail, because they are the first modern example of the
horrible crime of genocide. Blame must be apportioned to the Armenians
and their supporters for the murder of Muslims. The Turkish historic
homeland, emptied of its native population until today, remains occupied
by the x-Soviet Armenian Government. Today, x-Soviet Armenia covers up
the genocide perpetrated by its predecessors and is therefore an accessory
to this crime against humanity. x-Soviet Armenia must pay for its crime
of genocide against the Muslims by admitting to the crime and making
reparations to the Turks and Kurds.
The following are the Jewish and Armenian sources on the cold-blooded
genocide perpetrated by the x-Soviet Armenian Government against 2.5
million Muslim people between 1914 and 1920. Still denying the obvious?
Source: Stanford J. Shaw, on Armenian collaboration with invading Russian
armies in 1914, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey (Volume
II: Reform, Revolution & Republic: The Rise of Modern Turkey, 1808-1975)."
(London, Cambridge University Press 1977). pp. 315-316.
"In April 1915 Dashnaks from Russian Armenia organized a revolt in the city
of Van, whose 33,789 Armenians comprised 42.3 percent of the population,
closest to an Armenian majority of any city in the Empire...Leaving Erivan
on April 28, 1915, Armenian volunteers reached Van on May 14 and organized
and carried out a general slaughter of the local Muslim population during
the next two days."
"Knowing their numbers would never justify their territorial ambitions,
Armenians looked to Russia and Europe for the fulfillment of their aims.
Armenian treachery in this regard culminated at the beginning of the First
World War with the decision of the revolutionary organizations to refuse
to serve their state, the Ottoman Empire, and to assist instead other
invading Russian armies. Their hope was their participation in the Russian
success would be rewarded with an independent Armenian state carved out of
Ottoman territories. Armenian political leaders, army officers, and common
soldiers began deserting in droves."
"With the Russian invasion of eastern Anatolia in 1914 at the beginning of
World War I, the degree of Armenian collaboration with the Ottoman's enemy
increased drastically. Ottoman supply lines were cut by guerilla attacks,
Armenian revolutionaries armed Armenian civil populations, who in turn
massacred the Muslim population of the province of Van in anticipation of
expected arrival of the invading Russian armies."
Source: Stanford J. Shaw, "History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey,"
Vol II. Cambridge University Press, London, 1979, pp. 314-317.
"...Meanwhile, Czar Nicholas II himself came to the Caucasus to make final
plans for cooperation with the Armenians against the Ottomans, with the
president of the Armenian National Bureau in Tiflis declaring in response:
'From all countries Armenians are hurrying to enter the ranks of the
glorious Russian Army, with their blood to serve the victory of Russian
arms...Let the Russian flag wave freely over the Dardanelles and the
Bosporus. Let, with Your will, great Majesty, the peoples remaining
under the Turkish yoke receive freedom. Let the Armenian people of Turkey
who have suffered for the faith of Christ receive resurrection for a new
free life under the protection of Russia.'[155]
Armenians again flooded into the czarist armies. Preparations were made
to strike the Ottomans from the rear, and the czar returned to St. Petersburg
confident that the day finally had come for him to reach Istanbul."
[155] Horizon, Tiflis, November 30, 1914, quoted by Hovannisian, "Road to
Independence," p. 45; FO 2485, 2484/46942, 22083.
"Ottoman morale and military position in the east were seriously hurt, and
the way was prepared for a new Russian push into eastern Anatolia, to be
accompanied by an open Armenian revolt against the sultan.[156]"
[156] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," pp. 45-47; Bayur, III/1,
pp. 349-380; W.E.D. Allen and P. Muratoff, "Caucasian Battlefields,"
Cambridge, 1953, pp. 251-277; Ali Ihsan Sabis, "Harb Hahralaram," 2 vols.,
Ankara, 1951, II, 41-160; FO 2146 no. 70404; FO 2485; FO 2484, nos.
46942 and 22083.
"An Armenian state was organized at Van under Russian protection, and it
appeared that with the Muslim natives dead or driven away, it might be
able to maintain itself at one of the oldest centers of ancient Armenian
civilization. An Armenian legion was organized 'to expel the Turks from
the entire southern shore of the lake in preparation for a concerted
Russian drive into the Bitlis vilayet.'[162] Thousands of Armenians from
Mus and other major centers in the east began to flood into the new
Armenian state...By mid-July there were as many as 250,000 Armenians
crowded into the Van area, which before the crisis had housed and fed
no more than 50,000 people, Muslim and non-Muslim alike.[163]"
[162] Hovannisian, "Road to Independence," p. 56; FOP 2488, nos. 127223 and
58350.
[163] BVA, Meclis-i Vukela Mazbatalari, debates of August 15-17, 1915;
Babi-i Ali Evrak Odasi, no. 175, 321, "Van Ihtilali ve Katl-i Ami,"
Zilkade 1333/10 September 1915.
Source: Hovannisian, Richard G.: Armenia on the Road to Independence, 1918.
University of California Press (Berkeley and Los Angeles), 1967, p. 13.
"The addition of the Kars and Batum oblasts to the Empire increased the
area of Transcaucasia to over 130,000 square miles. The estimated population
of the entire region in 1886 was 4,700,000, of whom 940,000 (20 percent) were
Armenian, 1,200,000 (25 percent) Georgian, and 2,220,000 (45 percent) Moslem.
Of the latter group, 1,140,000 were Tatars. Paradoxically, barely one-third
of Transcaucasia's Armenians lived in the Erevan guberniia, where the
Christians constituted a majority in only three of the seven uezds. Erevan
uezd, the administrative center of the province, had only 44,000 Armenians
as compared to 68,000 Moslems. By the time of the Russian Census of 1897,
however, the Armenians had established a scant majority, 53 percent, in the
guberniia; it had risen by 1916 to 60 percent, or 670,000 of the 1,120,000
inhabitants. This impressive change in the province's ethnic character
notwithstanding, there was, on the eve of the creation of the Armenian
Republic, a solid block of 370,000 Tartars who continued to dominate the
southern districts, from the outskirts of Ereven to the border of Persia."
(See also Map 1. Historic Armenia and Map 4. Administrative subdivisions of
Transcaucasia).
In 1920, '0' percent Turk.
"We closed the roads and mountain passes that might serve as
ways of escape for the Tartars and then proceeded in the work
of extermination. Our troops surrounded village after village.
Little resistance was offered. Our artillery knocked the huts
into heaps of stone and dust and when the villages became untenable
and inhabitants fled from them into fields, bullets and bayonets
completed the work. Some of the Tartars escaped of course. They
found refuge in the mountains or succeeded in crossing the border
into Turkey. The rest were killed. And so it is that the whole
length of the borderland of Russian Armenia from Nakhitchevan to
Akhalkalaki from the hot plains of Ararat to the cold mountain
plateau of the North were dotted with mute mournful ruins of
Tartar villages. They are quiet now, those villages, except for
howling of wolves and jackals that visit them to paw over the
scattered bones of the dead."
Ohanus Appressian
"Men Are Like That"
p. 202.
"An appropriate analogy with the Jewish Holocaust might be the
systematic extermination of the entire Muslim population of
the independent republic of Armenia which consisted of at
least 30-40 percent of the population of that republic. The
memoirs of an Armenian army officer who participated in and
eye-witnessed these atrocities was published in the U.S. in
1926 with the title 'Men Are Like That.' Other references abound."
(Rachel A. Bortnick - The Jewish Times - June 21, 1990)
1."Men Are Like That" by Leonard A. Hartill, Bobbs Co., Indianapolis,
1926
Memoirs of an Armenian Army Officer translated to English and
published by a member of American "Near East Relief Organization."
Gives the whole account of the genocide of all Turkish and Moslem
people in Armenia organized and executed by Armenian Government and
Army. Also gives account of countless other massacres and atrocities
against the Turkish people in Armenia.
2."Adventures in the Near East, 1918-22" by A. Rawlinson,
Dodd, Meade & Co., 1925
Eyewitness account of the same genocide by a British Army Officer.
3."World Alive, A Personal Story" by Robert Dunn,
Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1952
Another eyewitness account of the same genocide by an American
Officer.
4."From Sardarapat to Serves and Lousanne" by Avetis Aharonian,
The Armenian Review Magazine, Volume 15 (Fall 1962) through 17
(Spring 1964)
Memoirs of the chief Armenian delegate to the Paris Peace Conference
were published in the Armenian Review Magazine in 13 articles from
Volume 15 (Fall 1962) to Volume 17 (Spring 1964). These memoirs
include an interview between Aharonian and British Foreign Minister
Lord Curzon in which above-mentioned genocide was discussed. The
official report mentioned by Lord Curzon is the report of British
High Commissioner to Caucasia, Sir Oliver Wardrop.
Serdar Argic | 5 |
5,058 | dear pete,
for one who is so zionist as you, you should at least know your
hebrew, young man.
The last sentence in your posting should read:
Medina achat leshnai amim (not Echad medionnot leshtai amim).
I don't want to address your comments. They speak for themselves.
best regards from a Palestinian of Jewish origin who talks, reads and writes
Hebrew and does not hate Jews nor anybody else. | 5 |
2,040 | 5 | |
7,144 |
I too noticed that in all this screaming and shouting, not one
person brought up the question of atrocities being commited on non-muslims
by the Sudanese Government. Could it be that they are Africans and so who
cares? I suggest that everyone cut the hypocrisy and bleating about Bosnia
and go on to discuss something even more meaningless.
The report below shows that the Sudanese are acting in the finest
traditions of Islamic law as expounded by some die-hard people on the
net (who shall remain nameless).
Sudan
-----
Government troops 'steal women, children'
WASHINGTON - Government troops in Sudan are involved in massacres,
kidnapping and the transporting of forced labor into Libya, according
to a State Department document declassified Wednesday.
The report compiled by the U.S. embassy in Khartoum said government
forces, particularly Arab militias organized as the Popular Defense
Forces, "routinely steal women and children" in southern Sudan. | 5 |
2,167 | <forgot to leave in his quote source>
: >What happened in Waco is not the fault of the BATF. If they would of
: >had the proper equipment and personal then they could of captured the
: >compound on the initial assault and none of this would of happened.
The BATF is a part of the dept. of treasury, not justice. If they needed
to assault a place they could just do like the IRS does...call in the
federal marshalls service, their fugitive collection teams do similar type
assaults all the time. And they are very, very good about it, in both the
tactical and legal parts of it. But I suspect that the marshalls would
not have touched it, because the search warrant (which is still sealed I
believe) was so bogus.
Besides the BATF also could have gotton SWAT teams from: federal marshalls
service; FBI; secret service; national park service; texas rangers; nearby
large city police forces; the military. But they had to use their own
guys, nobody elses SWAT team was good enough for the holy cause of gun
control.
I also find the timing of the raid to be extremely interesting.
Initial raid: two days before the NJ senate was going to overturn their
"assault weapon" confiscation law; a couple weeks before the BATF's budget
was going to come up in congress for review; shortly after Reno got
confirmed as AG (I don't need to remind you about her anti-gun line);
right around the presidents 100th day in office. As a wise man once
action. I don't believe that these four things are conincidental. Do
you?
food for thought... | 5 |
822 |
That is the result of living in an alternate universe with 'Arromdians'
of the ASALA/SDPA/ARF Terrorism and Revisionism Triangle. Are you '*ians'
for real?
A Final Goodbye in Azerbaijan:
[Photo by Associated Press]: "At a cemetery in Agdam, Azerbaijan, family
members and friends grieved during the burial of victims killed in the
fighting in Nagorno-Karabagh. Chingiz Iskandarov, right, hugged the
coffin containing the remains of his brother, one of the victims. A copy
of Koran lay atop the coffin."
The New York Times, 3/6/92
Final Embrace :
[Photo by Associated Press]: "Chingiz Iskenderov, right, weeps over
coffin holding the remains of his brother as other relatives grieve
at an Azarbaijani cemetery yesterday amid burial of victims killed
in fighting in Nagorno-Karabagh."
The Washington Post, 3/6/92
Nagorno-Karabagh Victims Buried in Azerbaijani Town :
"Refugees Claim Hundreds died in Armenian Attack...Of seven bodies seen
here today, two were children and three were women, one shot through
the chest at what appeared to be close range. Another 120 refugees
being treated at Agdam's hospital include many with multiple stab
wounds."
Thomas Goltz
The Washington Post, 2/28/92
Armenians Burn Azeri Village in New Unrest:
"Armenian guerillas attacked a strategic Azeri village...in Nagorno-Karabagh
and burned it to the ground on Tuesday, Commonwealth television reported.
Channel one television said the village of Malybeili, in the Khodzhalin
district, was now cut off and a large number of wounded were left stranded.
Itar-Tass news agency said several people were killed and 20 wounded in
the attack on the village... Tass also said shells fired from Armenian
villages into the Azeri populated town of Susha, just 6 miles south of
Stepenakert, demolished two houses and damaged five others...Fierce fighting
flared two weeks ago following the crash of an Azeri helicopter in Karabagh
in which 40 people died." (Reuters)
Turkish Daily News, 2/12/92
CIS Commander Pulls Troops Out of Karabagh :
"Elif Kaban, a Reuter correspondent in Agdam, reported that after a battle
on Wednesday, Azeris were burying scores of people who died when Armenians
overran the town of Khojaly, the second-biggest Azeri settlement in the
area. 'The world is turning its back on what's happening here. We are dying
and you are just watching,' one mourner shouted at a group of journalists."
Helen Womack
The Independent, 2/29/92
Armenian Soldiers Massacre Hundreds of Fleeing Families:
"The attackers killed most of the soldiers and volunteers defending the
women and children. They then turned their guns on the terrified refugees.
The few survivors later described what happened: 'That's when the real
slaughter began,' said Azer Hajiev, one of the three soldiers to survive.
'The Armenians just shot and shot. And they came in and started carving
up people with their bayonets and knives.' A 45-year-old man who had been
up on us and people were falling all around. My wife fell, then my child."
Thomas Goltz
Sunday Times, 3/1/92
Armenian Raid Leaves Azeris Dead or Fleeing:
"...about 1,000 of Khojaly's 10,000 people were killed in Tuesdays attack.
Azerbaijani television showed truckloads of corpses being evacuated from
the Khocaly area."
Brian Killen (Reuters)
The Washington Times, 3/2/92
Atrocity Reports Horrify Azerbaijan :
"Azeri officials who returned from the seen to this town about nine miles
away brought back three dead children, the backs of their heads blown off...
'Women and children had been scalped,' said Assad Faradzev, an aide to
Karabagh's Azeri governor. Azeri television showed pictures of one
truckload of bodies brought to the Azeri town of Agdam, some with their
faces apparently scratched with knives or their eyes gouged out."
Brian Killen (Reuters)
The Washington Times, 3/3/92
Massacre By Armenians Being Reported:
"The Republic of Armenia reiterated denials that its militants had
killed 1,000 [Azeris]... But dozens of bodies scattered over the
area lent credence to Azerbaijani reports of a massacre."
(Reuters)
The New York Times, 3/3/92
Killings Rife in Nagorno-Karabagh, Moldova:
"Journalists in the area reported seeing dozens of corpses, including some
of the civilians, and Azerbaijani officials said Armenians began shooting
at them when they sought to recover the bodies."
Fred Hiatt
The Washington Post, 3/3/92
Bodies Mark Site of Karabagh Massacre:
"A local truce was enforced to allow the Azerbaijanis to collect their dead
and any refugees still hiding in the hills and forest. All are the bodies
of ordinary people, dressed in the poor, ugly clorhing of workers. Of the 31
we saw only one policeman and two apparent national volunteers were wearing
uniform. All the rest were civilians, including eight women and three small
children. Two groups, apparently families, had fallen together, the children
cradled in the women's arms. Several of them, including one small girl, had
terrible head injuries: only her face was left. Survivors have told how they
saw Armenians shooting them point blank as they lay on the ground."
Anatol Lieven
The Times (London), 3/3/92
Karabagh Survivors Flee to Mountains:
"Geyush Gassanov, the deputy mayor of Khocaly, said that Armenian troops
surrounded the town after 7 pm on Tuesday. They were accompanied by six
or seven light tanks and armoured carriers. 'We thought they would just
bombard the village, as they had in the past, and then retreat. But they
attacked, and our defence force couldn't do anything against their tanks.'
Other survivors described how they had been fired on repeatedly on their
way through the mountains to safety. 'For two days we crawled most of the
way to avoid gunfire,' Sukru Aslanov said. His daughter was killed in the
battle for Khodjaly, and his brother and son died on the road."
Anatol Lieven
The Times (London), 3/3/92
Corpses Litter Hills in Karabagh:
"As we swooped low over the snow covered hills of Nagorno-Karabagh we saw
the scattered corpses. Apparently, the refugees had been shot down as
they ran...Suddenly there was a thump...[our Azerbaijani helicopter] had
been fired on from an Armenian anti-aircraft post..."
Anatol Lieven
The Times (London), 3/4/92
"Police in western Azerbaijan said they had recovered the bodies of
120 Azerbaijanis killed as they fled an Armenian assault in the
disputed enclave of Nagorno-Karabagh and said they were blocked from
recovering more bodies."
The Wall Street Journal, 3/4/92
Exiting Troops Attacked in Nagorno-Karabagh:
"Withdrawal halted; Armenians Blamed...
More video footage and reports from Khocaly paint a grim picture of
widespread civilian deaths and mutilation...
One woman's feet appeared to have been bound..."
Paul Quinn-Judge
The Boston Globe, 3/4/92
(to be continued...)
Serdar Argic | 5 |
707 |
Well, it seems we don't learn the lessons of history do we?
I was hoping that Kent State taught us a lesson.
Apparently not.
Apparently the government will murder anyone they choose to still.
---
Rawlin Blake blake@nevada.edu | 5 |
775 |
Actually Judea and Samaria are proper geographical names, just like
Asia Minor or Lake Michigan. Judea and Samaria are even used in
an atlas published in (what used to be) USSR circa 1970 that I have at
home. The government of the USSR was of course quite hostile towards
Israel and would hardly engage in a pro-Israel propaganda. I would be
willing to mail a photocopy of the relevant page to Mr. Schmidling
with relevant words underlined to simplify his search, if he promises
to report to the net afterwards.
Mr. Schmidling is to be congtatualted for being living exception to this
general rule. For although he is almost without peer in both the number
of lies posted and in the number of times he repeats them --- he hasn't
found many people who believe his lies (yet ?).
| 5 |
4,603 |
I saw this nifty drawn out posting and I thought I might give the two of you
a little help with your problem. As you both know what you posted,(and this
foolish thing gave me so much shit last time I tried to post) I took the
liberty of deleting all but the header and a single quote. I hope you don't
mind.
As written the second ammendment states rather clearly for anyone who can
read the following:
" A well regulated militia, being necessarry to the security of a free state,
the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
What is regulated? Regulated means "controlled"! How about security?
Well hey! That would be along the lines of being and feeling safe wouldn't
it? Wow! We have a concept forming here don't we!? Now what have we left?
"the right of the people people people people people people people (sorry
got kinda hungup there) shall NOT be infringed" Oops! Backup there,hmmm..
"infringed"....That'd be like Interfered with, altered, changed or
watered down in any way,shape or form! So! What we have here in it's big old
long winded version would be.
" A well controlled militia, being necessary to the secure/safe feeling of
state, the right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms shall not be Fucked
with in any way shape or form by some happy ass good for nothing in
some piddly government building who wants to run my life in the pursuit of
his happiness!" The item is clear and concise in it's present form my young
friend! It does not need my clarification or that of any other. THIS IS
ONLY AMMENDMENT which guarantees the continued existence of the others.
It's whole purpose is to give people recourse against the military machine
of a government which fails to properly represent it's creators!US!
ANY REPLIES OR COMMENTS CAN BE SENT TOO KANE. DJH4484@RIGEL.TAMU.EDU
"No representative government need fear it's armed citizens"
"Death to Tyrants!" | 5 |
6,871 | At first this kind of ranting annoyed me, but now it's rather entertaining.
These kinds of posts don't require ANY facts, logic, or even sense. It's
kind of like what 10-year old kids do on the playground. So go on and play.
Not everyone on the net is as simple minded as you guys seem to be.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Nothing is as inevitable as a mistake whose time has Garrett Johnson
come." --Tussman Garrett@Ingres.com
"The probability of someone watching you is proportional
to the stupidity of your action." - Unknown | 5 |
4,101 |
What is "doing it right the first time"? Murdered them all? Used tanks?
Maybe they should have had enough evidence to indict. From the list presented
to date, I haven't seen ANYTHING illegal. They claim that the BD's bought
components to convert their weapons to Class III devices, but no evidence that
they had done so. In fact, with a Class III FFL living with them, this may
have been legal (given recent court rulings).
What you really meant to say was that the ATF should have done the right and
lwaful thing. Or did you just want the BD's dead? | 5 |
5,893 |
It appears it is time that this article (originally posted by Larry
Cipriani last year, and which I saved) gets posted again. It offers
as good an analysis of the meaning of the Second Amendment, especially
regarding the militia clause, as I have seen. I have not seen any
rebuttles with similar bone fides...
Enjoy. (Flames to /dev/null)
--------- Begin Enclosed Article -----------
THE UNABRIDGED SECOND AMENDMENT
by J. Neil Schulman
If you wanted to know all about the Big Bang, you'd ring up Carl Sagan,
right ? And if you wanted to know about desert warfare, the man to call
would be Norman Schwarzkopf, no question about it. But who would you call
if you wanted the top expert on American usage, to tell you the meaning
of the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution ?
That was the question I asked A.C. Brocki, editorial coordinator of the Los
Angeles Unified School District and formerly senior editor at Houghton
Mifflin Publishers -- who himself had been recommended to me as the
foremost expert on English usage in the Los Angeles school system. Mr.
Brocki told me to get in touch with Roy Copperud, a retired professor
journalism at the University of Southern California and the author of
"American Usage and Style: The Consensus."
A little research lent support to Brocki's opinion of Professor Copperud's
expertise.
Roy Copperud was a newspaper writer on major dailies for over three decades
before embarking on a a distinguished 17-year career teaching journalism at
USC. Since 1952, Copperud has been writing a column dealing with the
professional aspects of journalism for "Editor and Publisher", a weekly
magazine focusing on the journalism field.
He's on the usage panel of the American Heritage Dictionary, and Merriam
Webster's Usage Dictionary frequently cites him as an expert. Copperud's
fifth book on usage, "American Usage and Style: The Consensus," has been in
continuous print from Van Nostrand Reinhold since 1981, and is the winner
of the Association of American Publisher's Humanities Award.
That sounds like an expert to me.
After a brief telephone call to Professor Copperud in which I introduced
myself but did not give him any indication of why I was interested, I sent
the following letter:
"I am writing you to ask you for your professional opinion as an expert in
English usage, to analyze the text of the Second Amendment to the United
States Constitution, and extract the intent from the text.
"The text of the Second Amendment is, 'A well-regulated Militia, being
necessary for the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep
and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'
"The debate over this amendment has been whether the first part of the
sentence, 'A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a
free State', is a restrictive clause or a subordinate clause, with respect
to the independent clause containing the subject of the sentence, 'the
right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.'
"I would request that your analysis of this sentence not take into
consideration issues of political impact or public policy, but be restricted
entirely to a linguistic analysis of its meaning and intent. Further,
since your professional analysis will likely become part of litigation
regarding the consequences of the Second Amendment, I ask that whatever
analysis you make be a professional opinion that you would be willing to
stand behind with your reputation, and even be willing to testify under
oath to support, if necessary."
My letter framed several questions about the test of the Second Amendment,
then concluded:
"I realize that I am asking you to take on a major responsibility and task
with this letter. I am doing so because, as a citizen, I believe it is
vitally important to extract the actual meaning of the Second Amendment.
While I ask that your analysis not be affected by the political importance of
its results, I ask that you do this because of that importance."
After several more letters and phone calls, in which we discussed terms for
his doing such an analysis, but in which we never discussed either of our
opinions regarding the Second Amendment, gun control, or any other political
subject, Professor Copperud sent me the follow analysis (into which I have
inserted my questions for the sake of clarity):
[Copperud:] "The words 'A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the
security of a free state,' contrary to the interpretation cited in your
letter of July 26, 1991, constitutes a present participle, rather than a
clause. It is used as an adjective, modifying 'militia,' which is
followed by the main clause of the sentence (subject 'the right', verb
'shall'). The to keep and bear arms is asserted as an essential for
maintaining a militia.
"In reply to your numbered questions:
[Schulman:] "(1) Can the sentence be interpreted to grant the right to keep
and bear arms solely to 'a well-regulated militia'?"
[Copperud:] "(1) The sentence does not restrict the right to keep and bear
arms, nor does it state or imply possession of the right elsewhere or by
others than the people; it simply makes a positive statement with respect
to a right of the people."
[Schulman:] "(2) Is 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms' granted
by the words of the Second Amendment, or does the Second Amendment assume a
preexisting right of the people to keep and bear arms, and merely state
that such right 'shall not be infringed'?"
[Copperud:] "(2) The right is not granted by the amendment; its existence
is assumed. The thrust of the sentence is that the right shall be
preserved inviolate for the sake of ensuring a militia."
[Schulman:] "(3) Is the right of the people to keep and bear arms
conditioned upon whether or not a well regulated militia, is, in fact
necessary to the security of a free State, and if that condition is not
existing, is the statement 'the right of the people to keep and bear Arms,
shall not be infringed' null and void?"
[Copperud:] "(3) No such condition is expressed or implied. The right to
keep and bear arms is not said by the amendment to depend on the existence
of a militia. No condition is stated or implied as to the relation of the
right to keep and bear arms and to the necessity of a well-regulated
militia as a requisite to the security of a free state. The right to keep
and bear arms is deemed unconditional by the entire sentence."
[Schulman:] "(4) Does the clause 'A well-regulated Militia, being necessary
to the security of a free State,' grant a right to the government to place
conditions on the 'right of the people to keep and bear arms,' or is such
right deemed unconditional by the meaning of the entire sentence?"
[Copperud:] "(4) The right is assumed to exist and to be unconditional, as
previously stated. It is invoked here specifically for the sake of the
militia."
[Schulman:] "(5) Which of the following does the phrase 'well-regulated
militia' mean: 'well-equipped', 'well-organized,' 'well-drilled,'
'well-educated,' or 'subject to regulations of a superior authority'?"
[Copperud:] "(5) The phrase means 'subject to regulations of a superior
authority;' this accords with the desire of the writers for civilian
control over the military."
[Schulman:] "(6) (If at all possible, I would ask you to take account the
changed meanings of words, or usage, since that sentence was written 200
years ago, but not take into account historical interpretations of the
intents of the authors, unless those issues can be clearly separated."
[Copperud:] "To the best of my knowledge, there has been no change in the
meaning of words or in usage that would affect the meaning of the
amendment. If it were written today, it might be put: "Since a
well-regulated militia is necessary tot he security of a free state, the
right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged.'
[Schulman:] "As a 'scientific control' on this analysis, I would also
appreciate it if you could compare your analysis of the text of the Second
Amendment to the following sentence,
"A well-schooled electorate, being necessary to the security of a free
State, the right of the people to keep and read Books, shall not be
infringed.'
"My questions for the usage analysis of this sentence would be,
"(1) Is the grammatical structure and usage of this sentence and the way
the words modify each other, identical to the Second Amendment's sentence?;
and
"(2) Could this sentence be interpreted to restrict 'the right of the people
to keep and read Books' _only_ to 'a well-educated electorate' -- for
example, registered voters with a high-school diploma?"
[Copperud:] "(1) Your 'scientific control' sentence precisely parallels the
amendment in grammatical structure.
"(2) There is nothing in your sentence that either indicates or implies the
possibility of a restricted interpretation."
Professor Copperud had only one additional comment, which he placed in his
cover letter: "With well-known human curiosity, I made some speculative
efforts to decide how the material might be used, but was unable to reach
any conclusion."
So now we have been told by one of the top experts on American usage what
many knew all along: the Constitution of the United States unconditionally
protects the people's right to keep and bear arms, forbidding all
governments formed under the Constitution from abridging that right.
As I write this, the attempted coup against constitutional government in the
Soviet Union has failed, apparently because the will of the people in that
part of the world to be free from capricious tyranny is stronger than the
old guard's desire to maintain a monopoly on dictatorial power.
And here in the United States, elected lawmakers, judges, and appointed
officials who are pledged to defend the Constitution of the United States
ignore, marginalize, or prevaricate about the Second Amendment routinely.
American citizens are put in American prisons for carrying arms, owning
arms of forbidden sorts, or failing to satisfy bureaucratic requirements
regarding the owning and carrying of firearms -- all of which is an
abridgement of the unconditional right of the people to keep and bear arms,
guaranteed by the Constitution.
And even the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), staunch defender of the
rest of the Bill of Rights, stands by and does nothing.
it seems it is up to those who believe in the right to keep and bear arms to
preserve that right. no one else will. No one else can. Will we beg our
elected representatives not to take away our rights, and continue regarding
them as representing us if they do? Will we continue obeying judges who
decide that the Second Amendment doesn't mean what it says it means but
means whatever they say it means in their Orwellian doublespeak ?
Or will be simply keep and bear the arms of our choice, as the Constitution
of the United States promises us we can, and pledge that we will defend
that promise with our lives, our fortuned, and our sacred honor ?
(C) 1991 by The New Gun Week and Second Amendment Foundation.
Informational reproduction of the entire article is hereby authorized
provided the author, The New Gun Week and Second Amendment Foundation are
credited. All other rights reserved.
About the Author
J. Neil Schulman is the award-winning author of novels endorsed by Anthony
Burgess and Nobel-economist Milton Friedman, and writer of the CBS "Twilight
Zone" episode in which a time-traveling historian prevents the JFK
assassination. He's also the founder and president of SoftServ Publishing,
the first publishing company to distribute "paperless books" via personal
computers and modems.
Most recently, Schulman has founded the Committee to Enforce the Second
Amendment (CESA), through which he intends to see the individual's right to
keep and bear arms recognized as a constitutional protection equal to those
afforded in the First, Fourth, Fifth, Ninth and Fourteenth amendments.
J. Neil Schulman may be reached through: The SoftServ Paperless Bookstore,
24-hour bbs: 213-827-3160 (up to 9600 baud). Mail address: PO Box 94, Long
Beach, CA 90801-0094. GEnie address: SOFTSERV
--------- End Enclosed Article ------------- | 5 |
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