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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
And then there's a question of which equilibrium to select.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So, and if you select your strategy
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
from a different equilibrium and I select mine,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
then what does that mean?
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
And in these non zero sum games,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
we may lose some joint benefit
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
by being just simply stupid.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
We could actually both be better off
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
if we did something else.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
And in three player, you get other problems
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
also like collusion.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Like maybe you and I can gang up on a third player
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
and we can do radically better by colluding.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So there are lots of issues that come up there.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So Noah Brown, the student you work with on this
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
has mentioned, I looked through the AMA on Reddit.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
He mentioned that the ability of poker players
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
to collaborate will make the game.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
He was asked the question of,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
how would you make the game of poker,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
or both of you were asked the question,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
how would you make the game of poker
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
beyond being solvable by current AI methods?
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
And he said that there's not many ways
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
of making poker more difficult,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
but a collaboration or cooperation between players
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
would make it extremely difficult.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So can you provide the intuition behind why that is,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
if you agree with that idea?
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Yeah, so I've done a lot of work on coalitional games
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
and we actually have a paper here
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
with my other student Gabriele Farina
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
and some other collaborators at NIPS on that.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Actually just came back from the poster session
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
where we presented this.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
But so when you have a collusion, it's a different problem.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
And it typically gets even harder then.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Even the game representations,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
some of the game representations don't really allow
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
good computation.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So we actually introduced a new game representation
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
for that.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Is that kind of cooperation part of the model?
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Are you, do you have, do you have information
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
about the fact that other players are cooperating
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
or is it just this chaos that where nothing is known?
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So there's some things unknown.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Can you give an example of a collusion type game
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
or is it usually?
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So like bridge.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So think about bridge.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
It's like when you and I are on a team,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
our payoffs are the same.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
The problem is that we can't talk.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So when I get my cards, I can't whisper to you
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
what my cards are.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
That would not be allowed.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So we have to somehow coordinate our strategies
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
ahead of time and only ahead of time.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
And then there's certain signals we can talk about,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
but they have to be such that the other team
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
also understands them.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So that's an example where the coordination
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
is already built into the rules of the game.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
But in many other situations like auctions
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
or negotiations or diplomatic relationships, poker,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
it's not really built in, but it still can be very helpful
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
for the colluders.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
I've read you write somewhere,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
the negotiations you come to the table with prior,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
like a strategy that you're willing to do
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
and not willing to do those kinds of things.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
So how do you start to now moving away from poker,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
moving beyond poker into other applications
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
like negotiations, how do you start applying this
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
to other domains, even real world domains
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
that you've worked on?
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Yeah, I actually have two startup companies
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
doing exactly that.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
One is called Strategic Machine,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
and that's for kind of business applications,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
gaming, sports, all sorts of things like that.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Any applications of this to business and to sports
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
and to gaming, to various types of things
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
in finance, electricity markets and so on.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
And the other is called Strategy Robot,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
where we are taking these to military security,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
cyber security and intelligence applications.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
I think you worked a little bit in,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
how do you put it, advertisement,
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
sort of suggesting ads kind of thing, auction.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
That's another company, optimized markets.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
But that's much more about a combinatorial market
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
and optimization based technology.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
That's not using these game theoretic reasoning technologies.
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
I see, okay, so what sort of high level
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
do you think about our ability to use
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
game theoretic concepts to model human behavior?
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
Do you think human behavior is amenable
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Tuomas Sandholm: Poker and Game Theory | Lex Fridman Podcast #12
to this kind of modeling outside of the poker games,
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