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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
did a lot of experiments of this type with mice and rats
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
and concluded that every part of the brain
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
was essentially equivalent to any other one.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
It turns out that that's really not true.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
There are very specific modules in the brain, as you said.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And people may lose the ability to speak
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
if you have a stroke in a certain region,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
or may lose control of their legs in another region.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
So they're very specific.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
The brain is also quite flexible and redundant,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
so often it can correct things and take over functions
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
from one part of the brain to the other.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
But really, there are specific modules.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
So the answer that we know from this old work, which
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
was basically based on lesions, either on animals,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
or very often there was a mine of very interesting data
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
coming from the war, from different types of injuries
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
that soldiers had in the brain.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And more recently, functional MRI,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
which allow you to check which part of the brain
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
are active when you are doing different tasks,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
can replace some of this.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
You can see that certain parts of the brain are involved,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
are active in certain tasks.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Vision, language, yeah, that's right.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
But sort of taking a step back to that part of the brain
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
that discovers that specializes in the face
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
and how that might be learned, what's your intuition behind?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Is it possible that from a physicist perspective,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
when you get lower and lower, that it's all the same stuff
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
and it just, when you're born, it's plastic
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
and quickly figures out this part is going to be about vision,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
this is going to be about language,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
this is about common sense reasoning.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Do you have an intuition that that kind of learning
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
is going on really quickly, or is it really
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
kind of solidified in hardware?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
That's a great question.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
So there are parts of the brain like the cerebellum
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
or the hippocampus that are quite different from each other.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
They clearly have different anatomy,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
different connectivity.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Then there is the cortex, which is the most developed part
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
of the brain in humans.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And in the cortex, you have different regions
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
of the cortex that are responsible for vision,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
for audition, for motor control, for language.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Now, one of the big puzzles of this
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
is that in the cortex is the cortex is the cortex.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Looks like it is the same in terms of hardware,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
in terms of type of neurons and connectivity
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
across these different modalities.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
So for the cortex, I think aside these other parts
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
of the brain like spinal cord, hippocampus,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
cerebellum, and so on, for the cortex,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
I think your question about hardware and software
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
and learning and so on, I think is rather open.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And I find it very interesting for Risa
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
to think about an architecture, computer architecture, that
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
is good for vision and at the same time is good for language.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Seems to be so different problem areas that you have to solve.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
But the underlying mechanism might be the same.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And that's really instructive for artificial neural networks.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
So we've done a lot of great work in vision,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
in human vision, computer vision.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And you mentioned the problem of human vision
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
is really as difficult as the problem of general intelligence.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And maybe that connects to the cortex discussion.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Can you describe the human visual cortex
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
and how the humans begin to understand the world
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
through the raw sensory information?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
What's, for folks who are not familiar,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
especially on the computer vision side,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
we don't often actually take a step back except saying
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
with a sentence or two that one is inspired by the other.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
What is it that we know about the human visual cortex?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
That's interesting.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
We know quite a bit.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
At the same time, we don't know a lot.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
But the bit we know, in a sense, we know a lot of the details.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And many we don't know.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And we know a lot of the top level,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
the answer to the top level question.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
But we don't know some basic ones,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
even in terms of general neuroscience, forgetting vision.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Why do we sleep?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
It's such a basic question.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
And we really don't have an answer to that.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
So taking a step back on that.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
So sleep, for example, is fascinating.
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Do you think that's a neuroscience question?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Or if we talk about abstractions, what do you
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
think is an interesting way to study intelligence
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
or most effective on the levels of abstraction?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Is it chemical, is it biological,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
is it electrophysical, mathematical,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
as you've done a lot of excellent work on that side?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Which psychology, at which level of abstraction do you think?
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
Well, in terms of levels of abstraction,
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Tomaso Poggio: Brains, Minds, and Machines | Lex Fridman Podcast #13
I think we need all of them.
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