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[3341.96 --> 3349.14] php's git server he says all right i'll owe you 20 bucks that's fast so that's a conversation i think
[3349.14 --> 3354.54] we've uh we've kind of had here and there on this show too just this um this sort of descent towards
[3354.54 --> 3359.72] corporations and their takeover of open source and what true open source is we've had um to kind
[3359.72 --> 3365.40] of call it a corporate source right yeah uh we had chad whittaker on who's uh runs get up and he's
[3365.40 --> 3370.64] obviously pretty uh prolific in that he's open company kind of person we had some deep conversations
[3370.64 --> 3375.30] both on the show and then after the show as well with them on that so we've kind of danced around
[3375.30 --> 3381.66] that quite a bit i think that's just a natural fear when it comes to like profit and and uh and
[3381.66 --> 3386.64] source code you know they just then you got things like bounty source and people want and there's
[3386.64 --> 3393.26] legitimate reasons for people wanting to raise money to build something um i'm thinking like tim
[3393.26 --> 3396.52] caswell i don't know if you listen to that show or not but he did some pretty cool stuff and
[3396.52 --> 3401.14] um he's just really interested in building infrastructure code not really building products
[3401.14 --> 3408.06] on it and he's trying to find ways to do that full time and make it completely open source and
[3408.06 --> 3413.22] i think that's just naturally it's something we want to support but it's it's neat to see the
[3413.22 --> 3418.82] contrast of like corporates taking over and uh what you call real open source i'm curious to know what
[3418.82 --> 3426.08] he meant by that but uh one last question we have is uh is it called arms it's a call to arms to like
[3426.08 --> 3432.76] uh the php spec you know whatever you can think of really that that you're um you know spending your
[3432.76 --> 3437.32] days on how can the community wrap themselves around whatever um you think is most important
[3437.32 --> 3443.08] what's some good guidance to the php community as it as it is to what you're working on well i mean
[3443.08 --> 3448.38] the first piece of guidance i would give no matter what project we're talking about whether it's php or
[3448.38 --> 3455.38] anything else you know don't feel afraid to get involved in an open source project just because
[3455.38 --> 3460.36] you don't think your coding skills are up to par or because you think that um you know somebody's
[3460.36 --> 3465.70] not going to like your ideas you might get yelled at a couple of times because people are kind of jerks
[3465.70 --> 3471.08] but sometimes not everyone's a jerk and not everyone's not most people aren't jerks all the time
[3471.08 --> 3477.20] um and you can also pick something that you feel comfortable with if that means documentation
[3477.20 --> 3482.02] god you will get loved for writing documentation you want to build you want to keep people from
[3482.02 --> 3488.62] yelling at you write documentation and they will love you for life um something like the spec you know
[3488.62 --> 3495.42] we we knew there were grammatical and spelling mistakes in the spec when we released it and we're
[3495.42 --> 3499.84] like you know we're okay with that because that's a nice low-hanging fruit that somebody can come along
[3499.84 --> 3504.28] and just say hey here's a pull request and the next thing you know you've got somebody who's involved
[3504.28 --> 3510.38] in the project who has this feeling of stakeholdership over it even if it's just i got them to use
[3510.38 --> 3516.30] the right spelling of the word too you know that i've done that before that's something yeah i mean
[3516.30 --> 3521.58] and the next thing that person's going to do is they're going to actually start writing some
[3521.58 --> 3525.62] real documentation in there and then the next thing they're going to do is they're going to fix
[3525.62 --> 3533.02] some little runtime uh function that is a nice easy little tweak of code my first patch to php um i should
[3533.02 --> 3538.58] say by the way i did i did not go to school uh well not to college anyway um i don't have any formal
[3538.58 --> 3547.76] training in any language um i've learned uh c just kind of by jumping in and trying it out my first
[3547.76 --> 3553.30] patch to php with very little c experience was just to take the log function and give it a second
[3553.30 --> 3558.72] parameter so you can get logs in an arbitrary base it was a really easy patch to do it was a very tiny one
[3558.72 --> 3564.92] i sent it to the mailing list they said this is formatted wrong do it again oh okay and then i
[3564.92 --> 3568.84] reformatted it i sent it and they said oh this looks lovely thank you here would you like some
[3568.84 --> 3573.96] karma to commit some more patches in the future like that's and that's how it started all it takes
[3573.96 --> 3579.36] to get involved in open source and if if you're sitting there and if you're thinking gosh i'd like
[3579.36 --> 3586.60] to to work on some project but i'm just not up to it you're wrong just do it just do it yeah we uh
[3586.60 --> 3591.16] you're not going to get fired i think the barriers are even lower now with the way that coding has
[3591.16 --> 3594.52] become social with github i think back when you know in the karma days it might have been a little
[3594.52 --> 3600.60] different and higher barriers and now it's even lower barriers oh github has done wonderful things
[3600.60 --> 3606.72] for just bringing everybody out of the word woodwork because you can find your project so fast you can
[3606.72 --> 3611.96] fork it with a single button press you can make a little branch publish it to your own version of
[3611.96 --> 3615.62] it you don't have to find some place to host your code it's just right there next to the project
[3615.62 --> 3622.54] people can even discover your fork of it through the the the uh the ui it's fantastic love github
[3622.54 --> 3629.72] love github well sarah it definitely has been quite a blast having this chat with you thank you so much
[3629.72 --> 3634.96] for taking the time you have taken to to step away from what you do at eight in the morning your time
[3634.96 --> 3639.38] to have this chat with us i'm sorry for making you get up maybe a little bit earlier at least
[3639.38 --> 3644.00] talking for this long and this excitedly about what you do at eight in the morning it's just probably
[3644.00 --> 3648.74] not your maybe it's your norm i don't know but i usually wake up about an hour and a half from now
[3648.74 --> 3654.34] okay so you she woke up earlier just to have the conversation so um we really appreciate you taking
[3654.34 --> 3661.04] the time and just um your passion for you know for open source and and even you know your hero
[3661.04 --> 3665.30] statement there was like anybody who commits to open source with a generous heart and just really
[3665.30 --> 3670.18] wants to see it grow and not so much gain profit from it and i really appreciate you sharing all the
[3670.18 --> 3675.24] all that you have shared today on the show and you know as best you can keep in touch with us we'll
[3675.24 --> 3680.90] do whatever we can to help uh you know help mention whatever you do in the future and maybe we can get
[3680.90 --> 3684.70] uh someone back on the show again i like the the conversation we had there at the end so i'll ping
[3684.70 --> 3689.86] you via email and see if we can't extend some conversations we had here today but i do want to
[3689.86 --> 3694.98] mention three of our sponsors digital ocean coachip and top top for helping make this show possible
[3694.98 --> 3701.00] they are awesome five by five is awesome if you don't listen uh to any other shows on five by five
[3701.00 --> 3705.34] go to five by five dot tv uh right now and check some other shows out the changelog's on there at
[3705.34 --> 3712.44] slash changelog we broadcast every week live myself jared and awesome guests like sarah so at this time
[3712.44 --> 3717.84] everyone let's let's say goodbye bye goodbye
[3717.84 --> 3731.28] you
• Introduction to the episode's sponsor, PagerDuty, and its features
• Conversation with Tom Dale, co-founder of Tilde, and Jared, about the road to Ember 2.0
• Tom Dale's background and experience with Tilde and Ember
• Discussion of the challenges and benefits of bootstrapping a company like Tilde
• The role of consulting in Tilde's early stages and its impact on the company's approach to open source projects
• How Tilde's experience with consulting helped inform Ember's development and direction
• The importance of focusing on sustainable and paying products, as opposed to building cool features
• Discussion of the similarities between Tilde and Ember's development timelines and strategies
• Conversation about the balance between open source and business goals at Tilde
• The speakers want to distance Ember from being a company-centric project, but rather a community-led open-source project.
• They believe that strong open-source projects are led by a coalition of companies, not a single entity.
• The maintainers of Ember are not all employed by the same company, which is a healthy sign for the project's future.
• The speakers value open-source and believe it's essential to their work and the success of their company, Tilde.
• They share a passion for open-source and think it's crucial for maintaining motivation and commitment to a project.
• Ember started as a view-based component library in 2011 and has evolved into a full-fledged JavaScript framework for building client-side apps.
• The project's router is a key feature and an industry leader.
• The development process of Ember involves iterative improvements based on feedback from developers and addressing common pain points in web development.
• The current state of Ember.js, including issues with the back button and reloading, and the difficulty of figuring out what data is on the screen and keeping everything in sync.
• The introduction of Ember's new router in Ember 1.0 and the subsequent iteration on the pain points of build tooling.
• The development of Ember CLI and its popularity, which is part of Ember's goal to become a complete front-end stack.
• The challenges of working with JavaScript and the pain points of having a thousand different hand-rolled buggy scripts to handle the same problems.
• The idea behind Merb, a competitor to Ruby on Rails, and its focus on modularity and a well-defined plugin system.
• The development of Rails, including the revamping of the plugin system and the rebuilding of the controller system to be more modular.
• The concept of a shared solution, where a framework has a single solution that the community maintains as a group, and the importance of having a framework that is adaptable and able to incorporate new practices.
• The problem of a framework becoming too big to have one opinion be the only opinion, and the challenges of maintaining backwards compatibility.
• Rails 3 showed that a single maintained stack can be built internally in a modular way
• Balance between building internal solutions and having a widely-used, ecosystem-driven approach
• DHH's experience with Ember and JavaScript ecosystem, feeling it's too fragmented and lacking in shared solutions
• JavaScript community's fear of falling behind and tendency to build their own solutions
• Ember under attack from two sides: those who see it as a monolithic stack and those who don't understand its conventions
• Noise around Ember due to the ecosystem and differences between Rails and JavaScript communities