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[267.24 --> 273.32] but i think actually the best thing for us about doing the consulting is it has really opened our |
[273.32 --> 279.46] eyes about how to run an open source project because we get to go around to so many different |
[279.46 --> 284.60] companies and each company has such a different culture has such a different process and has very |
[284.60 --> 289.86] different requirements and so being able to kind of peek behind the curtain at people who are all these |
[289.86 --> 294.10] different companies that are using ember and see how their needs are different but also most |
[294.10 --> 300.04] importantly how their needs are the same has been uh really really really helpful in terms of kind of |
[300.04 --> 305.18] steering ember in the direction it needs to go and also in terms of product like one thing that was |
[305.18 --> 309.84] pretty one thing that worked pretty well for us is when we started thinking about it we thought of a few |
[309.84 --> 315.08] different options and many of the options actually were similar to things that other companies have done |
[315.08 --> 318.72] and you know sold big to google but we actually focused on a product that we thought could be |
[318.72 --> 323.70] sustainable over the long term that we that we knew people would actually pay for and that constraint |
[323.70 --> 328.80] actually ended up being far more um interesting and important than a lot of the other constraints |
[328.80 --> 333.82] like we could build a lot of cool stuff but actually focusing on something that we knew people would |
[333.82 --> 339.16] pay decent money for actually is what drove us towards the product that we ended up building |
[339.16 --> 345.38] interesting so uh incorrect if my history is wrong but i feel like tilde and ember kind of were born |
[345.38 --> 350.78] around the same time i know it was originally sprout core and you guys kind of moved away from there |
[350.78 --> 355.22] was ember kind of like a core strategy of you guys from a business side or is open source a core |
[355.22 --> 361.56] strategy that you just said we have to do this alongside tilde well i think open source uh i don't |
[361.56 --> 367.52] want to call it a strategy because i think people may get the impression that we did ember because we |
[367.52 --> 373.76] want to become ember inc right and we want to sell these consulting packages you know and or be be like |
[373.76 --> 379.34] the mongo db or be like a meteor where the whole company the company is the open source product and the |
[379.34 --> 383.92] open source product is the company in a lot of ways right um but that's something that from the |
[383.92 --> 389.22] beginning we knew that we wanted to distance ourselves from because our belief is that the |
[389.22 --> 394.80] strongest open source projects are led not by one company but by a coalition of companies |
[394.80 --> 400.58] and and i'm very happy with where we've ended today because we could go out of business tomorrow |
[400.58 --> 404.78] and ember as a project would still continue to be very very healthy most of the maintainers do not |
[404.78 --> 411.72] work at tilde which is really really great um if anything i think open source is just a huge part |
[411.72 --> 419.20] of who especially yahuda and i are and that was one of the the benefits of starting our own company |
[419.20 --> 424.34] because so many times we've been at these corporations where we would have to expend so much |
[424.34 --> 429.48] energy just fighting with management trying to convince them that open source was a valuable thing |
[429.48 --> 434.64] yes and now we have our own place and we can say you know we don't have to have that discussion |
[434.64 --> 440.10] everyone coming in just assumes and knows that open source is a huge priority for us i can especially |
[440.10 --> 444.52] see that on your side tom as being at apple with you know the secrecy thing of course they do have |
[444.52 --> 449.80] open source things but i think wasn't sprout core was it open source uh sprout core was open source |
[449.80 --> 454.92] and it was definitely very unusual for apple to be open source at the time it was it was just a weird |
[454.92 --> 460.18] thing it was just it just didn't fit into the culture of apple and it was it was really really |
[460.18 --> 466.84] painful because every time we wanted to submit a patch publicly we had to hand prepare diffs that |
[466.84 --> 471.84] would be sent to a lawyer and we had to annotate each section of the diff explaining what was going on |
[471.84 --> 476.04] and identifying if there was anything that could be patentable oh sorry i gotta check on that one |
[476.04 --> 481.32] because that's it's like such a buzzkill it's like a lawyer-based pull request yeah i definitely i |
[481.32 --> 487.02] definitely agree with tom that i think it's less about making ember a big part of tilda and more |
[487.02 --> 492.98] just i think i agree me in particular but i think tom the reason we're friends is that we we share this |
[492.98 --> 498.70] um we care a lot about open source in general as people and as steve jobs said you should do the |
[498.70 --> 502.86] thing that you're passionate about and i think people often underestimate that they they underestimate |
[502.86 --> 508.22] the fact that you're going to be doing a startup for years and years of your life you actually |
[508.22 --> 513.92] need to be doing something that you can work nights and weekends that you can get up a night when |
[513.92 --> 518.76] things are stressful and still push through and i think the fact that we both really care about open |
[518.76 --> 523.44] source and everybody else at the company basically also cares about open source that means that when |
[523.44 --> 527.92] times are tough it's something that we can look at and say this is all worth it and i think if we had |
[527.92 --> 532.88] you know we could have built skylight with less open source and that would have been that would have |
[532.88 --> 538.20] been a possibly successful product but i think it would have given us less motivation to keep going all the |
[538.20 --> 543.30] time and i and i think people just yeah like i said people forget the fact that being passionate |
[543.30 --> 550.58] about what you're doing is how you keep going awesome and i mean why do we start our own companies |
[550.58 --> 554.70] or bootstrap if you have that privileges so that you can be the kind of company that you want to be |
[554.70 --> 559.48] so it makes total sense that you guys you guys are doing open source beforehand just that's who you |
[559.48 --> 565.22] are um so let's talk about ember maybe tom give us kind of the you know the blimp view of what ember |
[565.22 --> 569.74] is for those people i'm not exposed to the product and then maybe you could if you can give us a brief |
[569.74 --> 574.06] history of maybe how it started at sprout core i know it's been a long history but if you could |
[574.06 --> 579.92] summarize it and bring us up to where we're at today sounds good so i think at a very high level |
[579.92 --> 586.56] ember js is a javascript framework for building apps it's not really for building you know individual |
[586.56 --> 591.50] islands of richness it's not for building little uh you know widgets that you might put on your page |
[591.50 --> 596.74] it's for building client-side apps whose architecture is more similar to a phone app or a desktop app |
[596.74 --> 604.56] than a traditional server rendered web app but i think what's really interesting about ember is how much |
[604.56 --> 615.44] it's evolved so when we started ember in i think it was back in 2011 it was a purely view-based |
[615.44 --> 621.28] component library basically so it had handlebars templates and you could plug those templates into |
[621.28 --> 627.42] a some kind of data source which is usually a controller and that was it and i think if people |
[627.42 --> 632.80] know people know of ember today probably one of the things that they think about it one of the most |
[632.80 --> 639.10] you know widely known features is our router because the the router that we have in ember which |
[639.10 --> 643.70] basically keeps your application state in sync with the address bar in your browser that's |
[643.70 --> 649.82] definitely an industry leader i think we've got the best router on the market there and that didn't |
[649.82 --> 656.02] even exist when we started the project which is pretty incredible so this is kind of this iterative |
[656.02 --> 661.10] process that we've applied to ember where again we go and we talk with so many developers and we see |
[661.10 --> 666.86] where their pain points are and ember is all about just rolling common pain points for web developers |
[666.86 --> 672.16] into a single community solution that everyone can kind of use and agree on so we don't spend time |
[672.16 --> 677.24] everyone solving it a thousand different ways uh so when when we started we were just this kind of |
[677.24 --> 683.14] component library kind of similar to something like react today but quickly we discovered okay well |
[683.14 --> 688.16] people are having a lot of trouble one making apps that didn't feel broken because javascript apps felt |
[688.16 --> 692.98] and continue to feel today sometimes extremely broken in terms of like their back button and reloading |
[692.98 --> 698.10] uh so and we're also having trouble trying to figure out okay what data is on the screen what |
[698.10 --> 701.94] templates are on the screen right now keeping everything in sync and in other words bootstrapping the |
[701.94 --> 708.66] application as it as it starts up um and the router was kind of a nut crack for both of those you |
[708.66 --> 713.36] know we kind of cracked the nut of oh you can actually manage application state and have great urls |
[713.36 --> 719.86] through this single abstraction and so that was ember 1.0 was the introduction of this new router |
[719.86 --> 726.12] and over the past year we've been iterating a lot on what are the other pain points so the biggest |
[726.12 --> 731.82] one that we've identified in the last year is build tooling so every project every company we went into |
[731.94 --> 735.54] it's you know some people are using grunt some people are using gulp some people are using |
[735.54 --> 742.86] broccoli everyone's got a thousand different hand-rolled buggy scripts to handle the same set |
[742.86 --> 747.20] of problems everywhere and they're not shareable so we'd go in and i had to learn their build system |
[747.20 --> 751.30] because it was different from the last place i was at so ember cli has been the biggest component |
[751.30 --> 756.04] we've been working on this year it's been very popular so i i like to think of ember as having kind of |
[756.04 --> 762.86] involved sorry evolves into this complete front end stack where you can kind of take ember off the |
[762.86 --> 767.36] shelf you can boot up a new app in literally you know 30 seconds boom you've got a new ember app |
[767.36 --> 772.38] everything you need is there and you can start being productive right away cool i kind of stop you there |
[772.38 --> 777.50] i do i'm curious i have a question for both you guys you mentioned tom that you know the router and |
[777.50 --> 781.88] you got the broken back buttons and you said there's a lot of javascript apps that are just still kind |
[781.88 --> 788.40] of broken today yeah and i think we all feel that pain from time to time um there are some vocal |
[788.40 --> 796.32] kind of opponents to the front end stack uh that ember angular are providing um most notably you know |
[796.32 --> 803.66] dhh is kind of in the base camp crew um have kind of gone the other direction and um vocal people like |
[803.66 --> 809.00] i know gary bernhardt oftentimes just says don't ever use javascript because it always well gary says don't |
[809.00 --> 814.70] use any software at all that's true that's true he's generally mad at all software and he tends to |
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