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[2969.58 --> 2974.14] okay well i had situations where two-way data bindings were broken switch all the way to events i had a |
[2974.14 --> 2977.80] problem where events were broken switch all the way to two-way data bindings that's basically what we |
[2977.80 --> 2983.16] constantly see in the javascript community and it's to me by far the most frustrating thing yeah yeah but i think |
[2983.16 --> 2990.70] this is actually in my opinion the secret to ember's longevity is that you and i spend an inordinate |
[2990.70 --> 2995.34] amount of time talking about other frameworks and really analyzing them you know people really like |
[2995.34 --> 3000.84] this aspect people really hate this aspect well why let's try to really truly understand and we |
[3000.84 --> 3006.52] always incorporate that and fold that back into ember and i think that's why it always feels like uh you |
[3006.52 --> 3012.34] know i mean i think community is naturally kind of uh can kind of uh butt heads sometimes and i think that's |
[3012.34 --> 3016.32] why it was first it was ember versus backbone who's going to win ember versus backbone then it was like |
[3016.32 --> 3019.46] ember versus angular who's going to win ember versus angular and now a lot of people are like oh ember |
[3019.46 --> 3024.56] versus react who's going to win but the truth is we're going to keep we're shameless about stealing |
[3024.56 --> 3028.82] great ideas we still we stole some great ideas from backbone stole some great ideas from angular |
[3028.82 --> 3034.82] and now for ember 2 we're stealing a ton of great ideas from react and so in my mind the strength of |
[3034.82 --> 3041.08] ember and the reason why it has this longevity is because we don't have a problem saying you know what the |
[3041.08 --> 3044.86] way that we were doing before was bad let's do it this new way and let's make sure that everyone |
[3044.86 --> 3048.62] who's building an app today can get there that they have a path for transitioning but i think i think |
[3048.62 --> 3054.36] also to be clear we don't go and we don't whip around and say oh everything we were doing is totally |
[3054.36 --> 3059.64] broken i think there are totally legitimate use cases for two-way data bindings and totally legitimate |
[3059.64 --> 3066.34] use cases for all these things so it's more about finding what kate basically people got got kick |
[3066.34 --> 3072.22] puppy syndrome around two-way data bindings for good reason right and the answer is not i think |
[3072.22 --> 3076.50] often people throw the baby out with the bath water and every six months there's a new baby that's being |
[3076.50 --> 3082.86] thrown out with new bath water a lot of babies well it just seems like you're learning from the community |
[3082.86 --> 3086.70] well here i mean you say it well in the spot where you say learning from the community where you say we're |
[3086.70 --> 3091.34] well aware that we don't have a monopoly on good ideas that you'll incorporate things as they come along so |
[3091.34 --> 3096.02] it just kind of makes sense that that's the direction you head yep let me say this so you know |
[3096.02 --> 3100.14] obviously at the changelog like we've been watching we kind of just keep our thumb on the pulse it's |
[3100.14 --> 3105.14] what we do um so i've been watching your ember grow and i've been a part of the angular community |
[3105.14 --> 3110.74] and the backbone community and the ember community kind of on the fringes um i remember the old i think |
[3110.74 --> 3115.24] even you were on maybe it was javascript jabber back in the day with jeremy ashkenes talking about |
[3115.24 --> 3120.44] one-way versus two-way and for me the most surprising thing about your announcement here and i think the most |
[3120.44 --> 3126.42] um impressive actually is what you say here after a few years of having written ember apps |
[3126.42 --> 3130.46] we have observed that most of the data bindings and the template engine do not actually require |
[3130.46 --> 3136.94] two-way data bindings and just the the ability to say you know what it's not like it was a terrible idea |
[3136.94 --> 3141.62] but at the end of the day we're willing to grow and we're willing to say you know what this this is |
[3141.62 --> 3145.66] right now this is actually a better best practice we're not going to hold on to that old idea |
[3145.66 --> 3150.86] because it was yeah jeremy jeremy pulled that snippet and tweeted literally lol |
[3150.86 --> 3158.72] well it had to feel probably not too bad i mean so i i think what's kind of the mistake that we |
[3158.72 --> 3162.38] made is actually a little bit subtle and the mistake that we made was that at the time we said |
[3162.38 --> 3167.62] well there's one-way by data bindings and two-way data bindings and if you don't use a two-way if you |
[3167.62 --> 3171.84] use a two-way data binding without setting then it's just a one-way data binding so we could we |
[3171.84 --> 3176.08] thought we could simplify the model by just saying they're all two-way and just if you don't want to |
[3176.08 --> 3180.76] mutate something and don't and the mistake that we made there was that we didn't realize the |
[3180.76 --> 3186.56] importance of uh seeing from the point where you're actually writing out a component whether or not it's |
[3186.56 --> 3191.92] going to be mutated right so we basically from our perspective we said you know a one-way data binding |
[3191.92 --> 3197.56] is just a two-way data binding that isn't being set that isn't being mutated but that just wasn't a |
[3197.56 --> 3202.92] good programming model right people people would do something that they thought was a immutable data |
[3202.92 --> 3207.46] binding they would try to give some value to somebody expecting not to get set and then some |
[3207.46 --> 3211.18] other programmer somewhere else or some other third-party library all of a sudden would start |
[3211.18 --> 3215.34] mutating something and they would people would just get confused about what was going on so i think |
[3215.34 --> 3221.86] saying it's not enough to say it's just a two-way data binding that you didn't set let's explicitly say |
[3221.86 --> 3226.06] that you should opt into cases where you want it to be immutable i think ends up being good i think |
[3226.06 --> 3232.42] that's actually a lesson that we learned from rust in some ways yeah well we stole the syntax from |
[3232.42 --> 3236.52] rust but basically rust a lot of stealing happens sounds like uh sounds like we need to get you back |
[3236.52 --> 3241.70] on to talk about rust yahuda yeah seem pretty excited about it i know we were talking to steve klabnik who's |
[3241.70 --> 3246.16] a changelogger to have him come on and talk about rust so maybe we'll have both of you on sometime i think |
[3246.16 --> 3252.84] we're one of the first production users of rust actually yeah i think open dns is maybe the ape in |
[3252.84 --> 3257.58] earlier okay we're number two yeah happy to be number two we're used to it |
[3257.58 --> 3265.32] one last one last question just on the roadmap um back when i was using ember my biggest problem with |
[3265.32 --> 3272.42] it was just the how immature ember data was um sounds like it's still not hit a 1.0 is that true |
[3272.42 --> 3279.08] and what's the plans with ember data uh so we have not hit a 1.0 yet but we are very close |
[3279.08 --> 3286.50] um we kind of had to do a big rethink on ember data i think one thing that you'll see from our |
[3286.50 --> 3290.94] history is that we have a very strong commitment to semantic versioning and i think at this point |
[3290.94 --> 3295.58] you can trust us that when we declare 1.0 we we mean it that we're not going to introduce breaking |
[3295.58 --> 3299.38] changes uh unfortunately that does mean that we pack as many breaking changes as possible |
[3299.38 --> 3305.08] into not as possible but into the free 1.0 in other words squeeze into this yeah well we're just not |
[3305.08 --> 3308.46] that random yeah we're just not going to ship something that we're not proud of and that we |
[3308.46 --> 3311.60] don't think we don't feel if we don't feel confident that we can maintain it for the next |
[3311.60 --> 3317.08] you know two three four five years ten years we're just not going to ship it um and so finally with |
[3317.08 --> 3321.38] ember data i can confidently say that we've we've reached that point there's just a few little things |
[3321.38 --> 3326.86] that we need to button up before we declare 1.0 um but probably the biggest thing was trying to solve |
[3326.86 --> 3331.18] this issue of relationships it turned out i don't think we really fully appreciated this when we got |
[3331.18 --> 3335.92] signed when we signed up for ember data because on on the surface it looks just like an orm which |
[3335.92 --> 3341.60] you know looks like active record or any of these things um but it turns out to be an order of |
[3341.60 --> 3346.74] magnitude harder problem orms are pretty well understood because as it turns out orms have a |
[3346.74 --> 3351.36] synchronous access to the database you block the request while you access the database and your orm works |
[3351.36 --> 3356.90] but with ember data what i don't think we fully appreciated was that we were basically getting |
[3356.90 --> 3364.06] ourselves into a distributed computing problem where you have the source of truth on some server |
[3364.06 --> 3370.94] somewhere on some server on some database and at any given time you only have a small subset of that |
[3370.94 --> 3376.10] truth and it streams in over time and it can change and so you simply cannot get access to any |
[3376.10 --> 3381.76] information that you don't already have synchronously right yeah just impossible so we had to build a very |
[3381.76 --> 3387.12] robust system for dealing with this ambiguity and the fact that we could never have the full set of |
[3387.12 --> 3392.34] truth at once guaranteed and to be honest we tried the reason why ember data was so unstable was that we |
[3392.34 --> 3398.94] tried a bunch of different approaches and every essentially every approach had its ups and downs and we |
[3398.94 --> 3406.92] sort of move towards an approach that works but it it was not i think people people expect a much simpler |
[3406.92 --> 3413.16] kind of problem than it is yeah and i think if you look at the ecosystem uh there are libraries for |
[3413.16 --> 3421.22] like backbone has some very very uh simple i guess the charitable worth use uh data syncing built into |
[3421.22 --> 3426.56] it uh there are some libraries for angular is like rest angular and uh there's like a built-in resource |
[3426.56 --> 3432.06] dollar resource um but the thing that none of them tackle that was by far the biggest challenge is this |
[3432.06 --> 3437.02] notion of relationships so you know let's say i'm writing some blog software and i have a post and |
[3437.02 --> 3441.88] a post can have many comments that seems like the simplest thing in the world if you're a rails |
[3441.88 --> 3447.24] programmer a django programmer but actually modeling that building software that was flexible enough to |
[3447.24 --> 3452.40] handle that case was so difficult so i just i just want to be clear like obviously a lot of things have |
[3452.40 --> 3458.10] the notion of relationships in them right i think what tom is meaning here is that uh what a lot a lot of |
[3458.10 --> 3463.26] applications start off and they essentially download all the data they're ever going to see up front and |
[3463.26 --> 3468.96] they write you can easily write code that assumes that if you have post has many comments right and |
[3468.96 --> 3472.48] you're starting out that the comments were just downloaded together with the posts right with the |
[3472.48 --> 3476.68] posts right but then over time you're like well i have a huge blog i don't want to download every |
[3476.68 --> 3480.58] single comment so you break it apart so now your comments are asynchronous and then later on you |
[3480.58 --> 3485.22] discover and in ember this is not even avoidable you want to allow people to go directly to a |
[3485.22 --> 3491.14] a particular post right and now so basically the order that you may download the data is totally |
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