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[2432.00 --> 2437.36] kind of thing yeah no lineman is is awesome and i think of ember cli is basically an evolution of like |
[2437.36 --> 2443.16] okay lineman is awesome it embraces a lot of these ideas what can we do if we bake in even more |
[2443.16 --> 2447.28] integration with the framework i mean to be honest bridging build tools on the front end to be honest |
[2447.28 --> 2452.76] one of the things that really really hurt the early ember build tools uh efforts and i think |
[2452.76 --> 2458.10] hurts a lot of other efforts as well is that the way most people start by building build tools |
[2458.10 --> 2463.18] rebuilds everything all the time or may end up rebuilding a lot every time you make any changes |
[2463.18 --> 2470.16] and i think gulp tries to deal with this and it's largely successful with some problems um but grunt |
[2470.16 --> 2474.98] doesn't solve it at all and a lot of people will build tool tool chains on top of grunt and they'll |
[2474.98 --> 2480.42] they'll have a whole you'll demo it they'll go to meetups they'll build small projects with it and |
[2480.42 --> 2484.86] then you start getting people trying to build bigger things on top of it and you're just like embedded |
[2484.86 --> 2488.60] inside of a big company and all of a sudden everything's super slow and there's not really |
[2488.60 --> 2493.74] a lot of feedback to say okay well maybe grunt was like not the best idea so we actually used grunt with |
[2493.74 --> 2498.08] the original ember app kit effort and it just became obvious very quickly that we needed something |
[2498.08 --> 2503.38] that would allow you to do incremental rebuilds which is it sounds obvious but for some reason |
[2503.38 --> 2507.52] in javascript the idea that you have an incremental rebuild that when you make a change to one thing |
[2507.52 --> 2514.06] you should only cause a compilation of the things that changed is still not conventional wisdom i would |
[2514.06 --> 2519.22] say and that was i would say getting to that point goes from being something that demos well and people |
[2519.22 --> 2523.82] like to play with and you know go to meetups and show and goes to something that can be a real |
[2523.82 --> 2527.70] productivity booster is actually solving that seemingly boring technical problem |
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[2585.22 --> 2592.08] it seems like you guys have learned a lot from the community over the last couple years uh who do you |
[2592.08 --> 2597.42] touched on it with react you also said in the post that uh you saw from angular that easy onboarding |
[2597.42 --> 2602.36] is a big win for for getting people on board it sounds like the cli is going to help out in that effort |
[2602.36 --> 2606.96] tom maybe speak to the virtual dom what you've learned from react and how you guys are going to |
[2606.96 --> 2612.86] kind of get that stuff into ember here soon sure so i think a lot of the people this kind of gets |
[2612.86 --> 2616.42] back to the discussion we were having a little bit earlier about why do people still prefer to write |
[2616.42 --> 2623.28] server rendered apps and uh one thing that i didn't mention is that the programming model is just so easy |
[2623.28 --> 2628.86] right if you think about how people build uh server rendered apps request comes in you will get your |
[2628.86 --> 2632.88] model data out of the database you hand it over to your view layer to render and you return that |
[2632.88 --> 2638.76] output and that's it and every time you handle a new request because http is stateless you get kind of |
[2638.76 --> 2647.28] a uh you start from scratch conversely things like ember and angular have these two-way data bindings |
[2647.28 --> 2654.90] right and it's really easy to end up in especially a larger sophisticated application which is stateful |
[2654.90 --> 2659.30] so as the user's looking at it it's not like the state is getting reset you're constantly having |
[2659.30 --> 2663.94] to keep uh everything in sync yourself and you're making these changes to these objects and it's really |
[2663.94 --> 2668.86] easy unless you're diligent about it to end up with an application where you can't yourself reason about |
[2668.86 --> 2674.68] how data flows through it uh but in order to make two-way bindings work of course you kind of have to do |
[2674.68 --> 2684.50] that so to me the the brilliance in react is bringing back a programming model that is as simple as |
[2684.50 --> 2691.14] server rendered apps so for example you just set your model you know let's say you have a web socket |
[2691.14 --> 2697.56] and it gets uh new versions of a of a model streamed in every you know 30 seconds well all you have to |
[2697.56 --> 2704.40] do is take that model and say okay replace the old model with the new one and because react uh does |
[2704.40 --> 2709.08] this diffing strategy you basically re-render the entire app as though it was server rendered right it's |
[2709.08 --> 2713.86] not just set the model to a new model it's basically i want to replace this little bit of |
[2713.86 --> 2718.58] state and also re-render everything right i don't i don't want to have to figure out how to tunnel |
[2718.58 --> 2723.12] through the specific change just re-render the universe right so here's this change sounds like |
[2723.12 --> 2726.62] it would be slow i was gonna say doesn't that sound slow to re-render everything for a small change so |
[2726.62 --> 2731.60] that's the brilliance of of react i think is that they've uh figured out that javascript engines are |
[2731.60 --> 2736.74] so fast that you can quickly implement these diffing algorithms that go through and and quickly find |
[2736.74 --> 2743.68] the changes and reflect those uh from the virtual dom into the real dom very very cheaply right so so that |
[2743.68 --> 2748.56] to me is the core of react i think a lot of people like to reason about why it's becoming very |
[2748.56 --> 2754.00] popular but to me that's the nut of it is that it makes front-end programming feel as simple as it |
[2754.00 --> 2759.20] was when you were writing your rails app right and i think just to be clear i think there are |
[2759.20 --> 2764.04] definitely edge cases with that where you're re-rendering too many things and there's also |
[2764.04 --> 2769.14] problems with how do you know when you get a model from the server what exactly you poke at to get it |
[2769.14 --> 2775.30] to re-render um but i think the reason why people like react is that so many cases when you're |
[2775.30 --> 2780.68] building web applications are sort of these intra-component or inter-component cases where |
[2780.68 --> 2785.02] you have a little cluster of components and all the communication and all the state changes happen |
[2785.02 --> 2790.40] inside of this little cluster of components and you can get so far in react just by saying okay i you |
[2790.40 --> 2795.20] know i have this little widget the widget changes some state and re-render the little cluster of |
[2795.20 --> 2800.04] components that i'm inside of and don't have to worry about how to you know figure out how to |
[2800.04 --> 2806.74] tunnel some events through a data binding i honestly both ember and react and angular fell into a trap |
[2806.74 --> 2812.06] of even though both ember and angular have the notion of both events and data bindings i think data |
[2812.06 --> 2817.62] bindings feel so cool for cases where they're really appropriate that people start tunneling events |
[2817.62 --> 2823.26] through data bindings and that i think honestly when i look at the real critiques that a lot of react |
[2823.26 --> 2827.50] people have about ember and try to understand okay well you were an ember developer you were reasonably |
[2827.50 --> 2832.36] productive but you feel you find yourself way more productive and react what is what is happening |
[2832.36 --> 2836.34] one of the things that i see over and over again and what and this is something that really played |
[2836.34 --> 2842.94] into the ember 2.0 plan is that people are abusing i say abusing that sort of blames the victim here |
[2842.94 --> 2848.30] right i people are uh using a tool that that we're telling them is good which is two-way data |
[2848.30 --> 2854.06] bindings to express something that's fundamentally an event and i think a big part of ember 2.0 is to |
[2854.06 --> 2860.70] refocus energy away from two-way data bindings as the primary method of communication and move towards |
[2860.70 --> 2866.48] events as the first way that you think about it and you're starting to use data bindings one or two-way |
[2866.48 --> 2870.80] when they become appropriate for cases where they're appropriate and have them be sort of things that |
[2870.80 --> 2875.76] you start opting into as the situation yeah makes them i think that's definitely a mistake that we we |
[2875.76 --> 2882.02] made we added almost too much sugar around two-way data bindings and that kind of led people down |
[2882.02 --> 2887.20] this path of using them as an event bus it's kind of this really hacked together event bus and i think |
[2887.20 --> 2891.28] that was a lesson that maybe we actually over learned from angular because i remember watching |
[2891.28 --> 2895.48] presentations where people would show angular be like oh look at how easy it is to set up this two-way |
[2895.48 --> 2900.22] binding and i got i think i got a little jealous you know how how easy it was because that easy on |
[2900.22 --> 2904.16] ramp was so important and at the time two-way bindings were you kind of had to have them it was like |
[2904.16 --> 2909.16] you know um you had to have them even to participate in the in the competition but i think one thing |
[2909.16 --> 2915.02] that we should keep in mind is that this is a sad thing about the javascript community is that |
[2915.02 --> 2919.80] everyone's always looking for the one true solution so first it was two-way data bindings and now it's |
[2919.80 --> 2927.54] one-way data flow events right up actions down and it could be trans what is it trans uh it's the |
[2927.54 --> 2934.14] thing that came from the closure guys that transducers transducers right uh yeah could be channels or |
[2934.14 --> 2937.80] everyone's always looking for the one true solution that's what makes it tough about the |
[2937.80 --> 2941.74] javascript community there's always like the right way of building apps today and if you're not that |
[2941.74 --> 2946.96] way it's like you know get out but i think what's way more exciting and something that is like way |
[2946.96 --> 2950.90] more fun as a programmer and this is something that like i really love about the rust community actually |
[2950.90 --> 2956.14] is trying to trying to find contextually appropriate solutions so yes channels are great in some |
[2956.14 --> 2960.24] cases maybe transducers are great in some cases two-way data bindings totally great when you're |
[2960.24 --> 2964.52] building a form and you're just trying you just want to make sure that when you type something it |
[2964.52 --> 2969.58] actually updates the object and actually you don't have to have a callback but but trying to say like |
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