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[1899.70 --> 1904.32] kind of aligned with your interests because i promise you if i was just working on ember as my full-time |
[1904.32 --> 1908.38] job i would not bother with this it's only because we have the product that we can't break that we |
[1908.38 --> 1913.50] go through the pain of maintaining backwards compatibility what's your guys's plan as far as |
[1913.50 --> 1917.96] doing that your methodology for maintaining the stability while you're still moving forward |
[1917.96 --> 1924.18] so i can talk about this and uh not surprisingly our plan is essentially derived from what the |
[1924.18 --> 1929.12] browsers do um the browsers sort of had exactly the same situation somewhere around the time that |
[1929.12 --> 1933.80] chrome came out the browsers were really excited about moving forward but they just but they were |
[1933.80 --> 1940.26] stuck in these multi-year-long release cycles i think firefox 3 36 was like this huge release that |
[1940.26 --> 1945.98] took forever and chrome was frustrated by this and they came up with this idea of the six-week release |
[1945.98 --> 1951.30] cycle and the way that that works is that every six weeks you take every time you add a new feature |
[1951.30 --> 1956.40] you add it behind a feature flag so it's encapsulated and every six weeks you decide what new features |
[1956.40 --> 1961.72] can make it onto the beta branch and every six weeks after that you move things from the beta branch to |
[1961.72 --> 1966.28] the release channel and the way that the way that this works is it allows people to be very very |
[1966.28 --> 1970.58] aggressive on the master branch they can do whatever they want they can add whatever features they want |
[1970.58 --> 1976.68] they can not break on the web but they can they can do things that are aggressive but that doesn't |
[1976.68 --> 1981.52] necessarily directly affect the next release that requires more thought about stability more thought about |
[1981.52 --> 1986.58] deprecations and things like that and so when we started when we hit 1.0 i sort of saw that we had |
[1986.58 --> 1992.84] the same problem and we adopted the six-week release cycle pretty much verbatim from chrome and firefox |
[1992.84 --> 1997.26] for ember and actually the rust project also recently announced that they're going to do the same thing so i |
[1997.26 --> 2002.28] think there's something to it if you're if you really care about balancing these two priorities of |
[2002.28 --> 2008.74] how to keep things stable and not break all the time but also keep things moving the idea of there's just |
[2008.74 --> 2012.74] this rhythmic cycle and every six weeks your features either made it and if they didn't make |
[2012.74 --> 2017.12] it they're just on the next it the chrome team calls us the train model so you either make the |
[2017.12 --> 2021.70] train or you're on the next train the level of pressure is super low people get their work done i |
[2021.70 --> 2027.12] haven't had it seems like you if you ship every six weeks the level of pressure would be insane but |
[2027.12 --> 2031.90] actually ember has been the least pressure that i've ever felt on an open source project for shipping in |
[2031.90 --> 2036.94] my entire career and that's because it's just you know that you can make the next one yeah you fall behind |
[2036.94 --> 2040.28] on a feature and instead of saying well we're going to push back the release and everyone has |
[2040.28 --> 2044.22] to wait you know weeks and weeks and weeks to get access to the bet get the benefit for all stuff |
[2044.22 --> 2048.96] that's already done well you know i don't get this feature done today but it'll be out within six |
[2048.96 --> 2053.12] weeks so and you're thinking a lot more about individual features than you are about big releases |
[2053.12 --> 2060.80] which i think is pretty awesome i want to talk a bit about the the big bets because sometimes you say |
[2060.80 --> 2066.30] bets it's sort of like you're not really sure and i guess to a degree maybe you weren't very sure so you |
[2066.30 --> 2071.06] you play some pretty decent bets 2014 that that worked out well and then some of those bets are |
[2071.06 --> 2075.00] kind of playing into what you're going to do with 2.0 can you talk a bit about um the work you did on |
[2075.00 --> 2081.54] the cli and eventually how es6 models will become first class citizens and in that respect so so i've |
[2081.54 --> 2089.80] been working on es6 modules for a couple of years um i'm i'm on tc39 and i was i joined the champion team |
[2089.80 --> 2096.00] you should explain what tc39 is yes absolutely so tc39 is it stands for technical committee 39 which |
[2096.00 --> 2100.76] sounds like something out of the central bureaucracy in futurama um that's like saying |
[2100.76 --> 2107.86] that's like saying el nino is spanish for the nino yes exactly exactly it's just the 39th |
[2107.86 --> 2113.92] technical technical committee that exists uh in ecma which i don't sense for like european computer |
[2113.92 --> 2118.42] manufacturing association or something like that anyway so that committee is responsible for making |
[2118.42 --> 2123.78] javascript and i joined the group of people working on the module spec pretty early uh not early in the |
[2123.78 --> 2129.00] module spec lifetime but i think early in people's consciousness about es6 modules existing and one |
[2129.00 --> 2133.76] of the first things that i really wanted was i said well modules are somewhat involved thing at the time |
[2133.76 --> 2138.90] modules didn't support single export or default export um and a bunch of other stuff and i said |
[2138.90 --> 2142.48] i think it's really important that we actually start getting some real world usage of modules |
[2142.48 --> 2148.58] so that what we feed back into the es6 process it has reality so i wrote a really bad transpiler |
[2148.58 --> 2155.86] for es6 modules to amd um and very early on both because i was a big believer in modules being a |
[2155.86 --> 2160.70] thing and because i really wanted to make sure that the thing that we shipped in out of javascript was |
[2160.70 --> 2167.74] good uh i moved a lot of the ember community over to using es6 modules and that was definitely a big |
[2167.74 --> 2172.76] bet because i think the whole even today the module ecosystem is heavily fragmented and there was a |
[2172.76 --> 2179.72] at the time there was this meme that well like tc39 made it so clearly it's going to fail everyone |
[2179.72 --> 2185.56] should just use common js modules and so i really just wanted to make sure that the thing that actually |
[2185.56 --> 2192.22] shipped was good was a good quality thing so we did that um some of the very earliest adopters of es6 |
[2192.22 --> 2198.18] modules in the ember community really drove what ended up being the the es6 spec which i think is |
[2198.18 --> 2202.74] quite good now um basically has many of the features that people come to expect from node |
[2202.74 --> 2209.62] modules and i think along that process so basically before es6 modules were a thing it was pretty easy |
[2209.62 --> 2214.64] to just copy and paste some code put it into into a file and sort of develop the same way that most |
[2214.64 --> 2219.82] people developed and maybe concatenate at the end as a final build step but along basically as we added |
[2219.82 --> 2224.62] es6 modules it became clear that everybody who used es6 modules was going to need a build chain |
[2224.62 --> 2230.20] and so um stephan penner started to work on this thing called ember app kit and ember app kit was |
[2230.20 --> 2234.88] literally just a grunt script and a bunch of scaffolding and you would clone this grunt repo |
[2234.88 --> 2240.90] and this it sounds kind of lame um in retrospect but first of all having like one tool that everyone |
[2240.90 --> 2247.52] uses is great but second of all having um have having a thing that you're iterating on even if it's |
[2247.52 --> 2251.46] not the best thing in the world gives you a sense of what actually is the requirement so we spent |
[2251.46 --> 2256.52] i don't know like six months or a year uh iterating on ember app kit just to get a sense of what is |
[2256.52 --> 2261.90] actually the requirements and then more recently this year we moved to we moved all that learning |
[2261.90 --> 2268.82] into a more abstracted thing that you could download install update um unlike ember app kit and that |
[2268.82 --> 2273.80] became ember cli and i think just having like a central place where people could say like here is my |
[2273.80 --> 2280.12] build process it involves es6 modules and concatenation and maybe like hashes for so for cache busting |
[2280.12 --> 2285.98] and and you start with that set of things and then before long you have the add-on ecosystem you have |
[2285.98 --> 2290.94] uh additional tools you have like proxies pointing at your server you have all these additional workflow |
[2290.94 --> 2294.38] tools basically you get this you have a central thing which is like how you build an ember app |
[2294.38 --> 2300.08] and that ended up being it started with a little tiny kernel of like let's start getting more let's get |
[2300.08 --> 2305.14] into a modules world instead of a globals world and it has expanded more and more into like the way that |
[2305.14 --> 2310.34] people think about building ember applications and it's really fast i think it's really fast and is |
[2310.34 --> 2316.46] such a huge productivity booster stuff that people would spend literally weeks setting up and tailoring |
[2316.46 --> 2323.28] for their app now you get it in in seconds and in fact i haven't asked for anyone listening who may |
[2323.28 --> 2328.80] have tried ember before let's say a year or two ago and maybe it wasn't to your taste try it again with |
[2328.80 --> 2334.38] ember cli because for me this has just totally changed how i develop web applications i'm extremely |
[2334.38 --> 2339.66] excited about it yeah and by the way tom says literally weeks and it sounds like an exaggeration |
[2339.66 --> 2344.70] yeah not exaggeration yeah we've worked with clients where we're like there for three months and we're |
[2344.70 --> 2349.48] there's like two weeks later people are still discussing like should we use grunt or gulp or |
[2349.48 --> 2356.16] whatever and and there's like these huge meetings with all the quote-unquote stakeholders it's like oh my |
[2356.16 --> 2360.54] god like this is totally a solved problem why are we discussing this over and over i think especially |
[2360.54 --> 2365.34] rails developers will appreciate ember cli because i've i've talked to several rails developers |
[2365.34 --> 2372.22] self-identifying rails developers who told me i thought that i just hated javascript but then i |
[2372.22 --> 2376.46] tried to use ember cli and i realized that a lot of the stuff that i love about rails isn't inherent |
[2376.46 --> 2381.52] to ruby that i can have that same or similar experience in javascript too yeah i think this is |
[2381.52 --> 2387.48] actually a lesson that go made stark and i work on rust also and rust sort of copied which is like |
[2387.48 --> 2391.62] which is that people don't necessarily think that carefully about workflow tools but having |
[2391.62 --> 2397.60] amazing workflow tools sort of baked into the experience is pretty awesome because it's not |
[2397.60 --> 2400.78] like oh well i can just build my own workflow tools because having to build your own workflow |
[2400.78 --> 2405.76] tools is kind of like it's like peeking under the skirt right it's like oh now i have to think about |
[2405.76 --> 2411.06] all this stuff as opposed to okay i want to generate some docs here i have a tool command i generate |
[2411.06 --> 2415.96] some docs and just like having that work is pretty nice i'm gonna say friend of the show justin |
[2415.96 --> 2422.60] who i think we had on a few episodes back uh doing lineman js i saw him in your guys's uh rfc |
[2422.60 --> 2426.96] comments pretty excited about uh ember cli and what you guys are up to with that so that's a |
[2426.96 --> 2432.00] i think that's a big win here's a guy who cares a lot about build tools and command lines and that |
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