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• The hosts thank their guests, Lars and Seth, for joining the show |
• The guests discuss the Dart project and its size, and how it's hard to do justice to it in a short podcast |
• The guests encourage listeners to check out the Dart project and start hacking on it |
• The hosts mention that they'll consider talking about Dart more in future episodes |
• The hosts promote their weekly email newsletter, the changelog weekly, and invite listeners to subscribe |
• The hosts announce that the guest for the next episode is still pending |
[0.00 --> 14.90] welcome back everyone this is the changelog where a member supported blog podcast and weekly email |
[14.90 --> 20.74] covering what's fresh and what's new in open source check out the blog at the changelog.com |
[20.74 --> 27.76] our past shows at five by five dot tv slash changelog and you're listening to episode 121 |
[27.76 --> 34.18] we're joined today by lars bach and seth ladd just two of the awesome team members behind dart |
[34.18 --> 41.96] a new language and platform started by google for scalable web app engineering today's show is |
[41.96 --> 48.18] sponsored by our partner digital ocean fresh books and new relic we'll tell you a bit more about |
[48.18 --> 54.06] fresh books and new relic later in the show but digital ocean we owe our uptime to digital ocean |
[54.06 --> 58.46] we're hosted on digital ocean we are partnered with digital ocean we think that you should |
[58.46 --> 65.04] use digital ocean i mean that's that's that should be the spot right there right but it goes on uh |
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[98.92 --> 103.04] digital ocean.com to get started and now on to the show |
[103.04 --> 113.02] welcome back everybody we are joined today by lars bach and seth ladd lars is the co-founder a co-founder |
[113.02 --> 119.88] of dart and v8 and seth is a developer advocate for dart we're here today to talk about dart and |
[119.88 --> 125.90] what it is and all those good things so lars why don't you give us an introduction to who you are and |
[125.90 --> 132.70] where you come from i don't want to spend too much time but the sad story is i've been doing virtual |
[132.70 --> 139.84] machines for object oriented languages since 88 so there's been a few and you probably can remember |
[139.84 --> 148.20] some of them like hotspot i was a tech leader on hotspot i've done strong talk what else v8 is one |
[148.20 --> 157.44] and so lots of different virtual machines and and my game is making the the languages run fast and |
[157.44 --> 163.96] lately last three years i've been focusing on the new programming language start and it's basically sort |
[163.96 --> 171.12] of uh written is from the experience of implementing the ioscript so we can talk about the later yeah |
[171.12 --> 175.14] for sure so i i forgot to mention when i introduced you that you both are at google so i just wanted to |
[175.14 --> 181.28] make sure we make that clear that is true okay all right and seth why don't you give us an introduction |
[181.28 --> 187.20] about who you are and where you come from sure so i'm a developer advocate with the google developer |
[187.20 --> 193.36] team and for the past couple years i've been focused on dart and helping external and internal |
[193.36 --> 200.36] developers get online with our tools our language our libraries and help get the community excited |
[200.36 --> 207.62] and participating in this new project awesome so can can one of you give me a introduction to what |
[207.62 --> 211.46] dart is i think that you know a lot a lot of people have heard about it because it's not exactly |
[211.46 --> 216.28] you know brand new um but but but maybe there are some people out there that aren't really familiar |
[216.28 --> 221.42] with it and would like to know what it is oh i can take a stab at that we started the dart project |
[221.42 --> 227.04] three years ago and it's a platform so and it includes a new programming language for the web |
[227.04 --> 234.06] but it also has a libraries a consistent set of libraries and programming tools on top of that |
[234.06 --> 240.94] if you talk about the the language it's a a clean simple class-based object oriented languages |
[240.94 --> 247.94] language and it's more structured than javascript and we want really want to capture people that are |
[247.94 --> 253.76] interesting uh having structure in the programming language so they can easily do refactoring and |
[253.76 --> 262.86] build last a lot web applications awesome so one of the things about dart i think that um i've i've |
[262.86 --> 267.38] heard just kind of talking to people and and and actually like doing some of my own research is |
[267.38 --> 273.12] right now it seems like and this is kind of the main one of the main questions i want to kind of |
[273.12 --> 278.30] get to but right now it seems like one of the big goals of dart is to be able to compile it down to |
[278.30 --> 284.70] javascript but that doesn't feel like the end goal for dart so would you say that javascript or sorry |
[284.70 --> 290.30] that dart is is is going to be an evolution in in uh you know writing program programming for the web or |
[290.30 --> 294.26] is it going to be an option you know a la coffee script or something like that to compile down to |
[294.26 --> 301.08] javascript well first of all i have to say for us uh being compatible with the web is really important so |
[301.08 --> 307.80] one of our most important components is the dart to js compiler it translates the dart source code |
[307.80 --> 314.00] into javascript and ensures that you get the same semantic semantics as if you ran on top of the |
[314.00 --> 319.72] virtual machine of course we have a virtual machine as well and we have a special build of chromium |
[319.72 --> 328.64] we call dartium and it has that dart virtual machine built in and so we can run raw dart in that |
[328.64 --> 336.16] browser but yeah the compatibility with the web is super important for us so so do you think that's |
[336.16 --> 341.86] something if i guess the question is if you had to kind of pick like would compatibility with javascript |
[341.86 --> 346.08] be what you would rather would you rather every browser have the dart vm installed |
[346.08 --> 353.72] well first of all it's always great if people take all our code and include in the browser but |
[353.72 --> 358.68] i think the the point is what we're trying to do is we are we're trying to make sure that |
[358.68 --> 367.16] that if you only have a javascript engine in your browser you'll still run a dart fine but there's |
[367.16 --> 373.92] certainly advantages or we're running the dart vm inside the browser two of them is that it runs faster |
[373.92 --> 380.10] and secondly you have a fantastic startup experience because the application startup super fast |
[380.10 --> 386.16] i do want to draw a distinction though between dart and some of the other languages like coffee script so |
[386.16 --> 392.34] coffee script is designed to provide a new syntax on top of javascript but it still retains |
[392.34 --> 398.42] javascript semantics whereas dart is its own language so yes compiling a javascript is really |
[398.42 --> 403.18] important for the project in the web but we're as large was saying we're we're able to bring over the |
[403.18 --> 408.42] semantics from the dart language and libraries back down to javascript so it's not just syntactic like |
[408.42 --> 414.60] code of paint so yeah that's something that you know you'll see with like typescript and asm |
[414.60 --> 421.24] that that are more like you know just you know subsets or supersets of javascript but this is a new |
[421.24 --> 426.32] language but i i have a i mean maybe just in layman's like if you could explain to me the difference |
[426.32 --> 434.50] because uh if it compiles down to javascript then it seems like it while you know in the future i could |
[434.50 --> 440.08] envision a world where using dartium or any other browser with the dart vm uh has major advantages |
[440.08 --> 444.00] because you can write dart and run dart in the browser but as long as it's being used to compile |
[444.00 --> 449.10] down to javascript it i don't really necessarily see the the huge increases that you can get with the |
[449.10 --> 456.58] dart vm so well well um let me just uh stop you a little bit it's uh you get fast execution i guess |
[456.58 --> 463.56] that's a good thing but think about the development process when you change the line of code you can |
[463.56 --> 468.56] be up running right away instead of first translating to to javascript and run in a |
[468.56 --> 476.74] java engine if you have the dart vm inside the browser right you can do a debugging at the source level |
[476.74 --> 483.38] and you can do very interesting things that are based on the language that's hard to do when you |
[483.38 --> 489.54] first translate to javascript and want to provide the same kind of programming experience yeah so so i |
[489.54 --> 494.06] guess that's what i'm saying is that it seems like the major the major benefits of dart other than just |
[494.06 --> 498.38] you know the the language itself being a very clean language is like when you actually use it in its |
[498.38 --> 503.50] in the dart vm itself rather than compiling it to javascript i think one of the huge benefits of dart |
[503.50 --> 508.58] is the productivity which is sort of what lars is alluding to here and that as a developer and i'm |
[508.58 --> 515.14] being asked to deliver engaging wonderful experiences to my users on mobile devices that need to run 60 |
[515.14 --> 521.04] frames a second take advantage of all the html5 features and really take advantage of these new |
[521.04 --> 527.50] mobile devices i'm being asked to develop and deliver much more complex applications and when i have a |
[527.50 --> 533.10] much more complex world i need languages libraries and tools to help me compensate for that and do things |
[533.10 --> 539.38] like static analysis warnings refactoring all the great stuff that we've had for other platforms for |
[539.38 --> 544.70] years and years and years and to get i'm i'm basically being asked to do this on the web now today just |
[544.70 --> 548.98] because my users are asking for this and so the huge advantage of dart is i get that productive |
[548.98 --> 553.56] development experience yet still get the really fast iteration times of the web |
[553.56 --> 559.62] so so one thing i would like to mention about the language we haven't talked about what's in the |
[559.62 --> 567.82] language but one thing i find that's really great is the optional typing an optional static typing |
[567.82 --> 575.12] gives you that you can start programming without any types so when you do experimentation you can get up |
[575.12 --> 581.70] run very fast but as you write a library and you want to harden it you put in the types maybe on the |
[581.70 --> 587.44] interface to the library and you can make sure that if people want to use the library they can |
[587.44 --> 594.20] validate that you pass in the right kinds of objects to that interface and i think that that allows the |
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