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[672.62 --> 677.68] in the you know the edge of the development community um there's lots of problems that can |
[677.68 --> 683.88] still be solved with traditional you know page based or rails you know application structure um |
[683.88 --> 688.16] how do you decide when when your clients come to you is it just based on the needs of the app |
[688.16 --> 693.86] and how often are a follow-up question how often are you doing the rich javascript clients and how |
[693.86 --> 699.70] often are you still doing traditional apps that's a great question i think that um there's really a |
[699.70 --> 704.34] third category too when you try to break down percentages of how we work uh there's a third |
[704.34 --> 710.26] category too which is like client already has a system and they need they need help and uh we're |
[710.26 --> 715.28] you know i think very pragmatic because what we want to be doing is uh build trust with the client by |
[715.28 --> 721.80] meeting them where they are um uh and to choose our battles to choose to like you know take a stand only |
[721.80 --> 726.04] where making a change from their perspective is going to like you know they're going to appreciably |
[726.04 --> 730.72] benefit somehow so sometimes like we're we're working in really eclectic and weird you know |
[730.72 --> 736.88] environments and we're totally cool with that because uh if it's solving the problem uh as well |
[736.88 --> 740.28] and as efficiently as possible and it's in a way that's copacetic with the client wants that's great |
[740.28 --> 746.26] but now to your question of like greenfield apps that we're just building most important thing to me |
[746.26 --> 752.90] is to understand uh what are they trying to get out of the out of the application is is user experience |
[752.90 --> 757.78] really important like if they want to have a really fantastic tight crisp enjoyable user experience |
[757.78 --> 761.20] because somebody's going to be in this application all day long maybe working out of it or maybe |
[761.20 --> 765.96] uh on the other end of the spectrum like it's a public facing application they want to be really |
[765.96 --> 771.26] sexy and convert a lot of users and build a lot of affect and loyalty then it starts to sound |
[771.26 --> 775.06] like rich client might make a lot of sense because anything happening locally in your browser is a much |
[775.06 --> 780.20] tighter feedback loop and you have a lot more kind of ux uh tricks in your toolbox but on the other |
[780.20 --> 784.70] you know on the other hand if what they need is like they don't have a lot of money uh they they |
[784.70 --> 788.82] don't have a lot that maybe they'll have a handful of users and it's a it's a seldom used app |
[788.82 --> 795.42] front-end application development like with javascript is like significantly more expensive and i think that |
[795.42 --> 800.86] some people don't acknowledge that because they're so busy trying to sell browser as the runtime |
[800.86 --> 804.96] everything's going this way but you have to acknowledge like it's doing a lot more work like |
[804.96 --> 809.70] a back-end rails app it's like a specification of the user interface we're just rendering some html the |
[809.70 --> 814.36] browser's actually doing the ui programming but like introducing a fat client application is just |
[814.36 --> 818.10] like a much more expensive thing because now you're building two things you're building an api application |
[818.10 --> 824.98] and you're building a fat client user interface application um and and i try to be as cognizant of |
[824.98 --> 829.42] the cost of that as possible in spite of the fact that i'm super duper excited about all the cool |
[829.42 --> 835.86] stuff you can do on the front end yeah i think i fall in that that that same category where um you |
[835.86 --> 839.82] know depends obviously on the customer's needs and on the actual business goals of the application that |
[839.82 --> 845.04] they're building and their budget and all sorts of things like that um oftentimes what i find is a |
[845.04 --> 853.24] very simple traditional web application um can serve companies quite well at first and then and you |
[853.24 --> 857.80] just kind of sprinkle in the javascript you know the interactions here you know make this uh do that |
[857.80 --> 864.54] fancy thing um maybe have some ajax based stuff but still doing the traditional style and then over |
[864.54 --> 869.68] time it gets to the point where they just keep asking for more and more and more of that to where |
[869.68 --> 875.62] even if you've been pretty diligent which i try to be with the the uh structure of the javascript |
[875.62 --> 881.68] side of the application which has been growing in line count right yep it gets a certain point where it |
[881.68 --> 887.76] becomes not unmaintainable but just not as efficient as if this would be you know an ember |
[887.76 --> 893.14] app with a with an api um do you guys the worst part of the worst part about that yeah the worst |
[893.14 --> 900.10] part about that particular phenomenon right is that um let me phrase it this way going back to sort |
[900.10 --> 905.38] of because uh um was it adam you mentioned that you just moved to one week sprints we were talking |
[905.38 --> 911.24] about like agile stuff right so one of the one of the one of my favorite agile dogmas is uh when you |
[911.24 --> 915.38] pull a story card and you're trying to implement it do the simplest thing that could possibly work |
[915.38 --> 922.80] right um i think a lot of agile teams fall into this trap of uh equating simplest with quickest to |
[922.80 --> 929.86] get done right and so that's the truth for sure so quickest to get done is let's just spin up a rails |
[929.86 --> 935.44] app put a view on there and then you know maybe iteration two three four we start sprinkling on |
[935.44 --> 940.36] unstructured javascript and sort of like the you know the the the front end equivalent of like one |
[940.36 --> 948.06] gigantic main method that we kind of like tease apart in an ad hoc fashion um the the problem with |
[948.06 --> 953.98] what i call like the simple the simple trap is you're kind of going up this complexity hill |
[953.98 --> 959.12] in a monolithic way uh in a totally unstructured way from the front end perspective and then all |
[959.12 --> 963.44] of a sudden you'll reach a point where it's just like you can't go any further and they want features |
[963.44 --> 967.72] that would demand of a fat client front end app like maybe it's a graphing tool and they want zoom |
[967.72 --> 972.60] and filter and all this stuff that you can't possibly rasterize on the back end uh there's no |
[972.60 --> 976.50] there's a huge chasm there there's no logical way to take the stuff that you've already built |
[976.50 --> 982.88] and iterate further to where they need to go you have to you have to break that monolith up now |
[982.88 --> 988.70] and and do some amount of rework and and build a new thing and breaking it up is really hard and and |
[988.70 --> 992.82] rework is really hard especially if somebody else is paying you for it and you're the one who |
[992.82 --> 998.42] recommended them that they go down that path in the first place so of the greenfield apps what do |
[998.42 --> 1003.70] you give me that percentage breakdown obviously just ballpark it uh new projects how how many are fat |
[1003.70 --> 1015.38] clients of our new of our new projects um probably two-thirds fat client one-third uh uh all back end |
[1015.38 --> 1022.74] just like a api to a uh well what do you know back end well i guess as i think about it i'm trying |
[1022.74 --> 1028.86] to think like when was the last time we had a client who who actually engaged us for a traditional like |
[1028.86 --> 1037.62] rails view layer yeah um i think maybe a fair percentage would be to say like 50 50 fat client |
[1037.62 --> 1043.80] web being 50 and then the other 50 being a combination of just uh like device integration network |
[1043.80 --> 1049.74] integration all back end services and also maybe a little bit of rail traditional rails crud um but |
[1049.74 --> 1053.22] we don't see a lot of traditional rails crud anymore because i think that the skills have commoditized |
[1053.22 --> 1059.74] a bit uh and it's you know a lot of people can get by just fine on that stuff without needing to call |
[1059.74 --> 1065.88] for help right cool interesting stuff i think you know those those decisions obviously as developers |
[1065.88 --> 1070.90] or as consultants whatever role we play we're making these decisions on which way do i go so now let's get |
[1070.90 --> 1077.14] back into lineman let's assume you know i'm convinced i need a javascript fat client lineman looks cool |
[1077.14 --> 1082.42] lineman says that its mission statement is to make fat client javascript web applications as easy to |
[1082.42 --> 1087.46] build as traditional server-side html web applications that's your guys's goal so what are the killer |
[1087.46 --> 1098.94] features what makes lineman awesome to work with so um caveat of uh when you're the person who built the |
[1098.94 --> 1104.60] thing you you you you use the thing differently than than anyone else will use the thing my usage |
[1104.60 --> 1110.54] patterns of lineman are probably very different than uh most of our users but so i can only really |
[1110.54 --> 1114.00] speak for myself because i'm not very good at marketing this thing i spent like a year and a |
[1114.00 --> 1120.18] half to to build that talk that you referenced at rails conf um my usage is i really like rapid |
[1120.18 --> 1124.98] prototyping new ideas quickly right so like i previously have been using rails for rapid prototyping |
[1124.98 --> 1129.50] but when it came to javascript interactions i love being able to say lineman new foo create a new |
[1129.50 --> 1134.08] project i got to build already and i can just start start writing code and it's immediately showing up |
[1134.08 --> 1140.04] in a browser um i like the consistency from project to project when we're all building lineman applications |
[1140.04 --> 1146.70] i like that we can take a common bit of uh one of our uh the biggest lineman users is rackspace um so |
[1146.70 --> 1151.18] there's a group at rackspace that's doing internal tooling and one of the cool things that they can do is |
[1151.18 --> 1155.26] they have like a sort of standard stack of lineman plugins and lineman actually supports meta plugins |
[1155.26 --> 1159.98] too so you could say like make a plugin called lineman rackspace and all it represents is like |
[1159.98 --> 1164.38] pulling in all of the plugins that it depends on at the versions that they specify and maybe any sort |
[1164.38 --> 1168.68] of deviations and configuration so you could literally as like an organization just settle on |
[1168.68 --> 1174.90] like this is our default you know initial project stack um and be off to the races on a new project in |
[1174.90 --> 1181.06] like two command lines um the other thing the other kind of half to the equation other than the |
[1181.06 --> 1186.44] like what lineman doesn't do like unlike yeoman it doesn't generate a whole bunch of garbage into |
[1186.44 --> 1190.64] your project that you can't tease out later can't upgrade later or have to deal with you know a |
[1190.64 --> 1200.30] community that's not supporting your your your uh bootstrap nonsense um the other thing that that i |
[1200.30 --> 1205.02] think is really great about lineman is that you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater |
[1205.02 --> 1210.30] from a server-side perspective like if i'm building a rails application um and i just want to you know |
[1210.30 --> 1215.10] do the next major feature on a standalone page as a lineman application that would be a fat client |
[1215.10 --> 1219.82] javascript application i can build that lineman application at in a world where that's the only |
[1219.82 --> 1224.08] thing that exists totally separately totally physically divorced but then lineman has features |
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