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So it's not this hard line, I think... There's a place of the continuum where it tips, where you have too many people who are being paid to work on the open source on behalf of other people, instead of doing their own extractions from their own work, and that's where things in my opinion tend to go downhill. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Balance. You're really calling for balance. |
**David Heinemeier Hansson:** Well, I am. I am calling for balance, and I think that that's also -- this is the nuance we can discuss when we don't have to boil things down into 140 characters, but... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, exactly. |
**David Heinemeier Hansson:** The two flipsides is sort of "What happens to API design when you're being paid to work on behalf of somebody, versus when you work on your own stuff and extracting it?" And then secondarily, what happens to motivations, particularly around -- that's not so much the full-time dilemma, I th... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, I found a link for that, so if you're listening, we're gonna put that in the show notes. So just camp out at the show notes; this is episode \#145, so go to changelog.com/145 and you'll find show notes there, if not already in your podcast listener/catcher thing or wherever you're listening to... |
David, one last question - we've had you for so long; we appreciate you taking the time to... I mean, again, 10+ years - you can't cover it quickly, so it's kind of... I don't wanna apologize too much, but you knew what you were in for. |
The one thing I wanna clarify here, and I'm really glad this question came up today because this is what I wanted to clarify before we closed the conversation, which was to reinvigorate the community listening on leadership around Rails, and the question came to you just haphazardly today; three hours ago someone said ... |
**David Heinemeier Hansson:** \[01:40:10.05\] Sure. I think the group that we have - both the core group, but more importantly the contributor's group, the people who are invested and engaged and interested in working on Rails for more than just a single issue is richer, more diverse, broader and more skilled than it's... |
Rails does not mean anything. If I thought Rails was - as one famous blog post put it in (I think) 2007 - a ghetto, I'd just get the hell out of dodge. I don't need to continue to work on Rails. I continue to work on Rails only because I enjoy it, and I enjoy it in very large parts because of that community, because of... |
What I see - I just see more good ideas flowing into Rails than I ever have, and that's why it was so shocking to me actually to see just the magnitude of that, when we look at those 12,000 pull requests, when we look at the almost 4,000 contributors... That is just an avalanche of good ideas, and I am incredibly thank... |
And I also think that we've just learned a lot over those ten years, that we have a much better process these days for having somebody show up at the Rails store and say "I kind of like how this looks... How can I help?" That path today is much better than it's ever been. |
What led to Merb was I think in large part because that path was not clear at all, it was not illuminated; you could find it if you had a machete and you were willing to cut through the jungle. Today's it's a freakin' highway. You drive on it, and then you just keep on driving, and things just get better and better. An... |
The process has just gotten so much clearer over the years, and we've ironed out so many of the bugs in that. Friction of contribution is way, way down, which means that the flow of ideas is way, way up. |
**Jerod Santo:** \[01:43:45.25\] Awesome, David. Well, we could probably keep you on the line all afternoon and just keep going down these different rabbit holes... I know I could, but... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** We're not gonna do that. |
**Jerod Santo:** We're gonna let you go with one closing question - we ask this to all of our guests; in fact, I think a few past guests have probably named you as their programming hero, so it'd be interesting to hear what you say here... If you've got one person - or if you've got a couple, that's fine as well - that... |
**David Heinemeier Hansson:** Sure. I definitely have to mention more than one. I'd go back to those early days, 2003, who were my main influencers, and I'd say it's Ward Cunningham, Kent Beck, Martin Fowler, Dave Thomas... That's probably a good group, just sort of rattling off of the top of my head, of people who rea... |
It's very satisfying for me to see that all of them are still kicking hard and pushing out great ideas that I continue to be provoked, inspired and motivated by. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, David, like I said, we definitely appreciate you taking so much time out of your Friday, close to drinking time -- or I guess if you're in Malibu it's not drinking time yet for you, but maybe, who knows? You might have been having some wine during this call, but... |
**David Heinemeier Hansson:** I had a kombucha just before we got on, so... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** There you go. Yeah, we definitely appreciate you taking so much time; I mean, 10+ years of Rails... Congratulations to you and everyone who's been a part of Rails, both as someone who's used it to build an application, or someone who's contributed back, to the companies that sponsored people being i... |
Thanks again for so much... So much you've put into it too, and just the time you've taken to come on the show today. Is there anything you wanna close with on your side, by any means...? Like how people can find you, how people can follow you if they don't know, or anything you wanna mention in closing? |
**David Heinemeier Hansson:** Sure. So first of all, I'd say I wouldn't have been doing any of this work if it hadn't been for my pleasure, and it certainly has been and it continues to be. I continue to be involved in Rails because I'm enjoying it, not because of obligation, not because defending some legacy or someth... |
If you want to follow me, I guess Twitter @DHH will flood your timeline with all sorts of opinions on both matters of tech and politics, so I think -- there's probably even people who have heard me on some tech podcast, who then started following DHH, and thought "Hey, whoa-whoa-whoa, I did not sign up for your opinion... |
**Jerod Santo:** \[laughs\] Buyer beware. |
**David Heinemeier Hansson:** Exactly. Fair warning given, if you choose to do so... But that is the main place. And of course, Signal v. Noise. Signal v. Noise is where I continue to blog about new techniques and so on. It's signalvnoise.com. And finally, my own personal website is david.heinemeierhansson.com, which y... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah, we'll definitely link out to that, for sure. You're also DHH on GitHub, or did you have to do something else for that...? |
**David Heinemeier Hansson:** Nope, I am DHH on GitHub. Yeah, I guess that's a good place to follow me, too. It's mostly Rails commits, obviously. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** As GitHub makes the personal timeline of who you follow better and better over the years, it'll be more rewarding to follow you and see what you're commenting on and all that good stuff. |
**David Heinemeier Hansson:** Sure. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** David, again, thank you so much, and to all the listeners, thank you for tuning in for such a long show. It was a pleasure to have David on. I know 10+ years is a long road to go down, but thanks for keeping up this whole show, and with that, let's say goodbye, everybody. |
**Jerod Santo:** Goodbye. |
**David Heinemeier Hansson:** Goodbye, thanks for having me. |
• Daniel Stenberg's background and work on curl |
• The origins of curl, released in 1998 as a small project by Stenberg |
• Curl's evolution from httpget to urlget to curl |
• Stenberg's hiring by Mozilla and work on Firefox and networking |
• The ubiquity of curl and its widespread use |
• Stenberg's thoughts on the project's success and his own role in its development |
• The comparison of curl to wget and the idea of a "nemesis" between the two projects |
• Development of libcurl and its importance in the curl project |
• libcurl's widespread adoption in various programs and languages, including PHP |
• Expansion of curl to support multiple protocols, including FTP, HTTP, HTTPS, and more |
• Financing of curl development through paid sponsorships and contributions from companies |
• Decision-making process for adding new features and protocols to curl |
• Gratitude and recognition of contributors, with a large number of individuals thanked on the curl project's Thanks page |
• Long-term adoption and impact of the curl project, with thousands of commits and contributors. |
• Daniel Stenberg discusses his project curl and its use in various companies and projects |
• A screenshot of a curl command on the NASDAQ tower is shown, initially thought to be an error but later revealed to be an ad for Apigee |
• Daniel Stenberg estimates that he has spent around 13,260 hours working on curl over 17 years |
• He attributes his long-term commitment to curl to his enjoyment of the project and his desire to see it continue to grow and improve |
• He is currently working on curl full-time, focusing on completing HTTP/2 support |
• The project has a large codebase, with around 200k lines of code, but is considered manageable due to its portability and modular design |
• Maintaining the long changelog for curl |
• Modularizing libcurl and breaking it up into smaller protocol-specific bits |
• Communicating with users, especially with such a large user base and lack of feedback |
• Version control systems, including past use of CVS, RCS, and Subversion, and current use of Git |
• Daniel Stenberg discusses his transition from CVS to Git |
• His project's history goes back to 1999, with 11,347 commits on GitHub |
• Git has made it easier to track contributors and manage issues |
• The project previously used SourceForge for bug tracking and has now switched to GitHub |
• Daniel Stenberg discusses the project's history and evolution, including its license changes |
• The project has used GPL, MPL, and dual licenses before settling on the MIT license |
• Personal identification with licensing and MIT license benefits |
• Impact of the MIT license on libcurl adoption |
• Funding for specific features and potential financial compensation |
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