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[2613.28 --> 2618.48] security in mind not for the developers but by the go creators like they don't want you to shoot |
[2618.48 --> 2621.84] yourself in the foot and you know they're going to make sure that there's no way for you to do it |
[2621.84 --> 2627.60] unless you really really want to even though you do have all those kinds of protections cryptography |
[2627.60 --> 2632.48] like can be misused like you know if you choose a bad key then you know nobody's going to save you from |
[2632.48 --> 2637.92] that if your protocol doesn't work then again you cannot be protected from it either |
[2638.64 --> 2645.04] i think it allows people to focus on design flaws instead of programming flaws and this is already |
[2645.04 --> 2651.04] like a huge burden off the shoulders of developers that is a very interesting insight that's interesting |
[2651.04 --> 2656.24] i see a lot of complaints outside of kind of the go community just you know like hacker news about |
[2656.24 --> 2662.56] goes choosing your defaults for like like tls or not letting you do certain things but that's |
[2662.56 --> 2666.96] one i'm firmly on board with if i don't want to if i don't need to think about it i don't want to |
[2667.60 --> 2672.72] and i don't want to make the mistake would you be able to confidently select your defaults for tls i |
[2672.72 --> 2677.20] mean i don't think i would feel comfortable doing this like you have to be like very well versed in |
[2677.20 --> 2681.84] cryptography to be able to make those kinds of decisions so it's very good that go is not making |
[2681.84 --> 2688.56] you do this i think in my opinion |
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[2775.36 --> 2802.56] another interesting about your interest in go you kind of mentioned that you started using go because |
[2802.56 --> 2808.72] malware was thrown at you kind of yeah exactly so i wouldn't say that i've started using go i would |
[2808.72 --> 2814.16] say that i was forced to learn go not that i i'm unhappy about it i'm not saying it's a bad thing |
[2814.16 --> 2820.08] what i'm saying is that i'm not really writing go code myself what i did was i had assembly that was |
[2820.08 --> 2830.56] generated by the go compiler and i was trying to make heads or tails from it so what i did was i looked at the assembly i was like okay this might be the go code that generated this assembly and then i opened my go id |
[2830.56 --> 2838.96] i opened my go ide and i compiled my code and checked if it was the same on both ends also when i start to |
[2838.96 --> 2843.92] learn about a language when i want to reverse engineer it i think it's super useful to write some simple |
[2843.92 --> 2848.48] programs and just compile it and see how it looks in the assembly level you know just create a simple |
[2848.48 --> 2854.48] stupid c function not c function but a sum function that you know adds to integers or you know something that |
[2854.48 --> 2859.92] will allow you to see what types of function calls the program is using what kind of constructs the |
[2859.92 --> 2864.48] language is generating the things that i had to face there was again the go compiler being way too |
[2864.48 --> 2871.04] smart for for my uses and it tends to inline all the function calls that are too simple what i mean |
[2871.04 --> 2875.76] by this is if you have a simple function that does almost nothing and you call that function then the |
[2875.76 --> 2880.64] go compiler will be like oh this is not worth a function call what i will do is i will take the code of all |
[2880.64 --> 2885.04] this function and put it inside the calling function and you know when you try to look at what |
[2885.04 --> 2889.60] a function call looks like in assembly then this is not helping you but the good thing is i was able |
[2889.60 --> 2894.80] to find the the good flags and uh for the compiler to disable opt all optimizations and things kind of |
[2894.80 --> 2900.32] worked out for me you mentioned that ida and which is the main tool you're using and the other tool |
[2900.32 --> 2907.44] are not really supporting go so if anybody wants to try reverse engineer to get into that but also want to |
[2907.44 --> 2913.76] do that with go what would you recommend how to do that so if you're going to reverse engineer go |
[2913.76 --> 2918.56] programs i still think that you don't have much choice there so you're still going to be you're |
[2918.56 --> 2923.76] still going to have to use either either pro or ghidra i want to switch to ghidra eventually but i |
[2923.76 --> 2929.76] haven't done so at the moment so i cannot speak too much about its capabilities i'm told that it's being |
[2929.76 --> 2937.12] improved at a very rapid pace so it's probably a good choice but when it comes to to ida it got better |
[2937.12 --> 2942.64] right i think that's a few months back maybe a year now you had my good friend uh juan andres |
[2942.64 --> 2947.28] guerrero sad from central one on the podcast and probably told you about the various plugins that |
[2947.28 --> 2953.68] he wrote to help people reverse engineer go programs with ida i also contributed to his repository with |
[2953.68 --> 2960.96] some script myself that i find useful but overall even though ida might not be perfect for the job |
[2960.96 --> 2966.48] it's still one of the two only tools that are available for the job so you still have to |
[2966.48 --> 2972.96] you know work through it no matter what the thing is i find myself thinking that even though starting |
[2972.96 --> 2979.28] with reverse engineering go is kind of difficult it turns out that i find myself liking reverse engineering |
[2979.28 --> 2984.40] go programs way more than c++ programs that tend to be extremely complicated with you know virtual |
[2984.40 --> 2989.52] function tables and the very complex structures that represent classes and so on because when it comes to the |
[2989.52 --> 2994.80] go language turns out that it kind of feels like a scripting language in the sense that everything |
[2995.44 --> 3000.48] ends up being a call to an api function or a call to some function that comes from the go standard |
[3000.48 --> 3006.16] library and so if you are able to take a debugger and you know look at all the arguments after you know |
[3006.16 --> 3012.32] how to do that but if you look at all the arguments of the go functions that are documented by the way and |
[3012.32 --> 3018.24] look at the return values then actually the meaning of the program tends to manifest itself even though |
[3018.24 --> 3022.72] you don't really understand all the instructions that are in the middle and you cannot track you |
[3022.72 --> 3027.44] know all the stuff going uh here and there so overall like my advice for people that would like |
[3027.44 --> 3031.68] to get started with go reverse engineering is okay it's going to be very different from what you are |
[3031.68 --> 3036.72] used to but at the end of the day i think you're going to end up liking it more than you would think |
[3037.52 --> 3043.04] because it's going to be way easier than it looks how about those listeners that haven't done any |
[3043.04 --> 3046.72] reverse engineering that want to get started do you have any good resources out there i know that you |
[3046.72 --> 3050.64] personally have made some videos you want to talk about that a little bit and anything else that |
[3050.64 --> 3056.16] would be helpful so yeah the videos that i put out are just related to the goal language if you're |
[3056.16 --> 3060.72] going to get into reverse engineering i would not advise you to start with go not because it's going |
[3060.72 --> 3067.12] to be harder or anything but because probably the basics of reverse engineering are going to be related to |
[3067.12 --> 3073.44] traditional c code or traditional assembly code generated by c and so this is going to be like your |
[3073.44 --> 3078.24] base knowledge of reverse engineering and then once you are comfortable with understanding what |
[3078.24 --> 3085.28] is going on with the c language and you know all the assembly that you see most places then you can |
[3085.28 --> 3092.72] move on to other languages and see how they differ from others or etc but i think c is always going to |
[3092.72 --> 3097.84] be used as a reference for other languages in the sense that when you look at assembly first you try to |
[3097.84 --> 3102.64] understand it like you would understand c and then if it's different like you adapt from that but if your |
[3102.64 --> 3107.92] baseline is going to be the go language if the like the the one thing you know is go and then you try |
[3107.92 --> 3113.44] to recognize whatever you learned with go with another language then you're going to be into trouble |
[3113.44 --> 3118.48] because whatever you're going to see next is not going to look like anything you saw in go so we do |
[3118.48 --> 3122.80] have a few courses at kaspersky but i mean people can check them out if they want there are a few |
[3122.80 --> 3130.48] interesting uh online courses as well it's something for free which is a beginners.re it's a website it used to be |
[3130.48 --> 3135.28] free maybe now it's behind a paywall i'm not sure but it used to be a big big reverse engineering course |
[3135.28 --> 3140.72] written by some guy and it was uh it was amazing you have a book which is called practical malware |
[3140.72 --> 3147.44] analysis it's a bit old now but i think it's still very much up to date it's from no stock press i think |
[3147.44 --> 3152.24] for beginners it's going to be a good way to get into the field because it explains everything that is |
[3152.24 --> 3157.76] going on it provides links to the various tools that you might need etc so a good resource there and |
[3157.76 --> 3163.92] finally if you want to approach this from the fun angle i can actually recommend extremely good steam |
[3163.92 --> 3169.92] games that allow you to like get a feel for reverse engineering so one of them is called turing complete |
[3170.48 --> 3175.52] and this one is uh like the pitch of this game is you're going to build your own computer and so you |
[3175.52 --> 3181.84] start with they give you logic gates like a xor gate or the electric cables basically and based on |
[3181.84 --> 3187.68] this you have to build a cpu component by component and then you move on with increasing levels of |
[3187.68 --> 3194.96] abstraction so it really it's really super helpful to understand how a program works or how a computer |
[3194.96 --> 3201.20] works it really it allows you to get this uh eye level bird eye view of how a cpu is constructed and |
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