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**Bill Kennedy:** Oh... |
**Mat Ryer:** Yeah, because I started doing it when it was 0.56; before it even got to 1.0. I remember oserror type, and stuff like that. |
**Bill Kennedy:** Yeah. I started in 1.2. 1.2 just got (I think) released, and that's when I started. See, what's interesting is you started before 1.0 release, right? |
**Mat Ryer:** Yeah. |
**Bill Kennedy:** Which had to be -- what made you do that? Because that's a big risk, right? Like, I just heard Google announced another potential programming language to replace C++, and now my brain can't remember what the name of this thing is. It's a weird name... They're announcing it. And my brain's going "I don... |
**Mat Ryer:** Yeah, well, I was building something for App Engine, and it just supported Java, Python, or this new Go thing with an experimental badge. And that was before it was proper -- I think it was before 1.0 that it supported that. And I just wanted to do some really simple database stuff, and I've found it very... |
**Bill Kennedy:** I've taught C++ before. I taught at a vocational level. So when I was maybe in my mid-20's and my wife at the time go pregnant, she couldn't work, I had to pick up a second job. So I picked up a job teaching vocational at night. I was able to make an extra thousand dollars a month teaching these class... |
So I was teaching C++ at the time, because that's what I was coding in. And when I look back on that, I don't think teaching Go was necessarily any easier than C++. I think it's about understanding what your student needs in order to be productive. If you're doing training, I believe it needs to be practical. They need... |
**Mat Ryer:** Right... |
**Bill Kennedy:** And sometimes I have to tell people "Don't go crazy refactoring right now. Just moving forward, and if you have this opportunity..." But I think any training, I don't care what it is that you're teaching, if the student walks out of that and doesn't have the ability to use it -- and maybe not on Monda... |
**Mat Ryer:** Yeah. |
**Bill Kennedy:** And I think the same thing -- I say this all the time for the stage talks. If you're giving a talk about tech X, and I'm using tech X, and I don't walk away from that talk knowing something that I can practically use... People like academic talks. |
**Mat Ryer:** \[25:57\] Yeah, I know, they do. I know, they do. And there's value in it. I quite like the academic ones, but there's nothing like that being able to actually do something with what you've learned. For me, learning in the context of some real problem that you have is the way I learn... And I did my book ... |
**Bill Kennedy:** No, but that would be a 10-volume book too, which people don't understand. You have maybe 20 pages, 25 pages to explain something in a book, and you have to really decide what level... Or you go off to tangents. But how cool is it in a conference -- I've been in really good talks, when the person in f... |
**Mat Ryer:** That's a win. |
**Bill Kennedy:** That's the win, right? Or somebody coming up and asking you questions about their job. "Hey, I'm doing..." To me, that's what I wanna see, at least for me, in trainings at talks; that's what I wanna see. |
**Mat Ryer:** No, that makes a lot of sense. So do you have to figure out the level of your audience before you're teaching? It's difficult at a conference because you're gonna have people at all levels. How do you deal with that? |
**Bill Kennedy:** If I'm doing the 20 to 30-minute talk, then no, because at that point you've already described hopefully what it is you're gonna explain and show, and if it's one of these multi-track, you've labeled "This is for intermediate. This is what I'm gonna do. Either it's for you or not", whatever. |
If you're in a workshop, then I think it's really important to try to gauge who your audience is. Now, if you're super-lucky, 80% are gonna be at the same level. Regardless of what it is, they'll be at the same level. If you're super-unlucky, there's an even distribution of beginners, intermediate, and advanced, which ... |
**Mat Ryer:** Yeah... \[laughs\] |
**Bill Kennedy:** Right? Because there's so many new -- everybody I'm meeting here, it's their first conference, they're mostly new to Go... So you're gonna have the mix. That's the challenge. But I always say this to everybody - it is better to overwhelm someone, than underwhelm. Always. |
So I'm always gonna try to -- again, if it's blended, I'm gonna target the intermediate; I'm gonna throw inside advanced stuff. I might just say, "Okay, now for all of you that are -- listen to this. It's not gonna make any sense to you, but..." And I pull them back in. |
And then the other thing which is critical, if you're in a room -- it's a long day conference and you have this mix. What I'll tell the more advanced students is "There's material here for you, but there are gonna be moments where you're gonna say "I know this." So what you need to do is understand that you're gonna be... |
**Mat Ryer:** Right... |
**Bill Kennedy:** And whether you like the way I'm doing it, then use it. If not, then how would you do it different? |
**Mat Ryer:** Hm... Either way, there's something there, yeah. |
**Bill Kennedy:** But focus your brain on what I'm saying and why I'm saying it; not for you to learn, but to learn how to teach. |
**Mat Ryer:** Yeah. That's a really good point. Are there enough people teaching Go? Do you think we need more? |
**Bill Kennedy:** There are a ton of new books coming out from new people... And I only know that because -- and you may get the emails, too... "Will you review, review, review...?" Right? |
**Mat Ryer:** Yeah... |
**Bill Kennedy:** \[29:48\] And I think that's good. The interesting thing though is Go has not really changed in ten years. Okay, we added generics, and there's been mass improvements in some internal runtimes. But when people say "Bill, your ultimate Go is on video. It's like two years old, it's gotta be outdated", I... |
**Mat Ryer:** Yeah. |
**Bill Kennedy:** So we've got a new book coming out. I don't know -- I try to push people away from the general books. I go "We already have them." We're lacking - and I say this all the time, and nobody wants to... We're lacking standard library package books. If somebody's listening to this and they're thinking abou... |
**Mat Ryer:** Yeah. |
**Bill Kennedy:** And every day, I would pick up one of them - because I have to google time, and bytes, all the time, because I don't retain that stuff... Right? I just need to look at something. |
**Mat Ryer:** Yeah. And it's still protected by the backwards-compatibility promise, so you've got longevity in the material as well |
**Bill Kennedy:** That's right. You've got it. So on the new book, what I did is I self-published, so I can update it when it's absolutely necessary. Because once you go to print, you're kind of locked in. |
**Mat Ryer:** What do you do - go around to people's houses and give them new pages to sell a tape in |
**Bill Kennedy:** Well, they can always download the PDF new, which is good... |
**Mat Ryer:** Oh, so they get that for the life of it. |
**Bill Kennedy:** For the life of it. You just grab all the new PDF. If you wanna get another print - that I can't do anything about, because that's Amazon cost... So we have that. We haven't had conferences, really... I mean, we've had conferences, but for some reason me personally - I don't watch conference talks. Ma... |
**Mat Ryer:** Yeah. You don't do that to learn, you mean... |
**Bill Kennedy:** No. Somebody I know is giving this talk, and I wanted to see it... Or maybe a handful of times... But I don't have patience for video. I love reading, because I can read very, very fast... The video, I have to put on 2x, and try to parse it. |
So video for conference talks for me are not where I go. And I've been asking people where they've been getting, and mostly it's been books, and then searching online. So you've got the books, I think they're valuable, I'd love to see a whole other set. Video - I do video, because-- And I think that stuff is in. But I'... |
My big problem with video is I'm gonna be more expensive than you going to Udemy. Even though I give away a ton of video for free on scholarships... People don't really know that they can just ask me, and I will give them discounts. I do it all day. |
**Mat Ryer:** I hear stories all the time though, that they saved -- "Oh yeah, Bill just gave me this thing, because I'm a student, I couldn't afford it", and they got in touch, and... |
**Bill Kennedy:** I didn't do this for you not to see it, or read it. Right? But at the same time, I'd like to believe that the quality of material I'm providing is going to be better than anything else out there. |
**Mat Ryer:** That's why you do it, right? |
**Bill Kennedy:** At least I have that belief system. So I don't mind the sales team trying to sell three or four sets of videos for -- I don't even know what they sell it for. Maybe $800. But I don't honestly know how many times we actually sell that free \[laughter\] I'm constantly being told that "Bill, this isn't a... |
**Mat Ryer:** \[34:14\] \[laughs\] Yeah. That's why you need those businesspeople, isn't it? |
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