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**Bartlomiej Święcki:** And actually, GDPR is the main reason why we started actually thinking about physical deletion... Because some laws require from you to make sure that the data is not accessible at all after some time. Of course, the rules are not clear, because sometimes you have to hide the data from the users... |
**Jeronimo Irazabal:** Regarding the use case, a few months ago there was a situation with a famous tennis player and the Covid-19 results. And there was some news regarding multiple results depending on when it was queried from the service. Of course, if that data is stored in immutable databases or in blockchain, the... |
**Break:** \[20:00\] |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** So it sounds like, of the use cases, some obvious ones are obviously financial transactions, health records, things that you care about that basically change over time; you want to be able to go back at some point and say "Hey, what was the state of things on this date?" and have a high degree of... |
So I'm curious, what drives folks like you into this particular domain problem? Why immutable databases? \[laughs\] ...of a lot of things you could be working on. |
**Bartlomiej Święcki:** Yeah, I think we both say that we like playing with cryptography and math. For me personally, when I started learning about immudb and what techniques it uses, the cryptography itself and the mathematics can be very theoretical. And as long as it doesn't find the practical place to give you some... |
When I've learned about immudb - because I joined the team a few months ago - it was this moment that you find something that is working, a live database that you can easily use it, and it has all this machinery behind it that is doing all these proofs, and it's cryptographically verifying everything, and it keeps ever... |
Previously, we could think of this... Maybe there's a project that I want to create, and it would use this technology, but then I find it hard to implement this. And suddenly, I find this kind of database where I have a very easy interface and I can just take it and use it. So for me, that's the major goal of projects ... |
**Jeronimo Irazabal:** \[24:01\] Yes. Before giving the explanation how I ended up here... But actually using immudb for an application developer is exactly the same as using a traditional database. You can download the immudb binary or local container, and you will use any other key-value store, or SQL database as wel... |
So before I joined Codenotary, I was working as a software engineer for IBM, and the last projects were related to digital rights management, and that was related to applied cryptography there for generating the crypto materials... And also, I was a contributor for Hyperledger Fabric. By then also I worked also in an e... |
So by then I just started to think about this type of systems, and I got to know about the company and the initial release of immudb. By then, immudb was implemented relying on another key-value store that was written in Go. So that's where I just started to work, |
And related to immutability, I think tampering detection is one of the types of verifications we can do, but there are many other things that are to be included, like what is the latest record that was modified, being able to verify when you are dealing with higher-level data models, like SQL... If you have a database ... |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Mm-hm. So it's not lost on me you mentioned blockchain... We'll come back to that, we'll come back to that. You've piqued my curiosity when you said that you support both SQL -- you can use it both as a traditional RDBMS, SQL database, or as a key-value store. Why the dual modality for accessing ... |
**Jeronimo Irazabal:** Actually, everything started as a log. immudb has a composite construction; everything started as an embedded database, so immudb can be used as an embedded database. This set of logs, append-only logs, that is verifiable - it's like a transparency log. So you can access it. One of the difference... |
\[28:05\] Then we have the possibility to build an index based on a key. Because every transaction or log entry consists of a list of key-value \[unintelligible 00:28:13.15\] So then you can easily get what are the transactions that modify this particular entry. And of course, you will get the latest one, but you also ... |
On top of this, we implemented SQL capabilities. So when you create an entry, thinking in SQL, it ends up being a transaction that consists of key and value entries. So SQL, all the SQL changes or the SQL data model is backed by a key-value database. So actually, the same transaction is what is happening. We are using ... |
Of course, they are isolated entries that are inserted using the key-value, not seeing the internal changes or internal entries that are when working with SQL, but both data models are possible. |
The advantage of using SQL, of course - it's easier to model your application. It's easier to work for later on to find index for \[unintelligible 00:29:48.13\] for writing queries, of course... But we also added the possibility to verify in SQL. So that is one of the differences. So you can get a particular row based ... |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** So you're still able to model your application just like you would in a relational system. |
**Jeronimo Irazabal:** Exactly. |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** It's just basically the encrypted storage that is used, and the verifiability once you pull data out - all these things you're adding sort of on top of the good old model that most developers who built web applications are familiar with, for example. |
So let's talk about the operability of this. But before we jump into that, I see Jon that you've got a burning question you wanna ask... |
**Jon Calhoun:** I don't have a burning question, but... |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** \[laughs\] It's a question. |
**Jon Calhoun:** I was gonna say that the SQL stuff reminds me of the first time I ran into a use case where I didn't necessarily need an immutable database, but I needed to mimic its functionality in some way. Basically, I was working on shipping stuff with addresses and everything, and one of the things that came up ... |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Or you're supposed to be. \[laughs\] I mean, I don't want you to be able to change that. \[laughs\] |
**Jon Calhoun:** As I say, most package managers won't let you do it, so I think as developers we use immutable systems at times, but we kind of like forget about it... Because I think a package manager is a great example of something that really benefits from something where you can verify nothing got changed... Becau... |
\[31:55\] But it's also interesting in the sense that I feel like most systems we work with that use immutability have some sort of scapegoat; the best example I can give is Git. We all use Git, where you can have the history, and it's supposed to basically be immutable... But there's always ways to force changes and t... |
So knowing that developers at some point want to rewrite history and stuff, do they have to come in to using immudb -- like they can't come into it, I'm assuming, with the same mindset of like "I can use this exactly like a SQL database." So are there any tips or advice that sort of like help them get out of that minds... |
**Bartlomiej Święcki:** So in immudb what actually you could think of is that you can change the data. You can do corrections. But what you will still get - you have this auditibility of the history. So it's like, I'm not lying to anybody that I did not make a mistake; I did make a mistake, I just corrected it. Right n... |
Also, this example with changing the address - I think this is something very interesting, because from the key-value level inside immudb we have something like a reference to other key. So instead of getting some specific value, you just try to read it from other key, and just forward it back. But what you can do is y... |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** \[laughs\] Please, do. |
**Bartlomiej Święcki:** Let me say that we have actually been using these immutable databases, but we just don't know it or just forgot about this... And a very good example is actually go mod proxy. Actually, the technology behind go mod proxy is very similar to what we have; it's this kind of immutable ledger. And ac... |
**Jon Calhoun:** I agree that that's good. I guess I would imagine it would make adoption harder, in the sense that developers are just weird about -- like, if somebody releases an invalid package and they wanna pull it back real quickly, they're still weird about like "Now I have to increment the version" and they don... |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Too bad. \[laughs\] |
**Jon Calhoun:** So does that make adoption harder, when you're basically forcing them to do that? |
**Jeronimo Irazabal:** In this, case, in immudb, you have to convince every other client. If you want to roll back the history in immudb, we have to convince every auditor or client that already have that register \[35:18\] locally. That's the only option. |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Measure twice, cut once... \[laughs\] |
**Bartlomiej Święcki:** But I think that really making a mistake is not something huge. We all make mistakes, and like in real life, there's always an option to correct the mistake. |
**Jeronimo Irazabal:** For example? |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Let's hear it. \[laughs\] |
**Bartlomiej Święcki:** Releasing a package that contains some bug. |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** Right, right. |
**Bartlomiej Święcki:** Why should we be ashamed of that? Actually, I see that people who can say that they made a mistake and they corrected that, they tend to deal with those issues better than trying to hide it. So I would go that way. |
**Jon Calhoun:** \[35:56\] That makes sense. I mean, I guess there are definitely cases where it makes sense to want to delete things. Like, if you released something on Git that had private keys, clearly you need to try to clean that up... But I agree with you that it is hard; people should be okay with mistakes, but ... |
**Jeronimo Irazabal:** And there is actually a technical situation that happened and there is a rollback. If you are using, let's say, a single master and a single node, and then caches, and you cannot recover the data. So if the back-up you have is old, older than the state that the client has, they will complain abou... |
**Johnny Boursiquot:** I think it's okay to admit mistakes... Mistakes are part of life, it's okay. Just make a new thing and put that out there, and hopefully people don't download your mistake before you have a chance to replace it. \[laughs\] |
I do wanna switch gears real quick to the operability aspect of things. Obviously, if one were to find a use case for immudb, or really immutable databases in general - it's interesting, as I was researching the technology, I came across other things that I'd come across before, but didn't realize that's what they were... |
For those listening in - it's interesting... Basically, find the executive order - it's called Cybersecurity Something-Something. Basically, you can find it on the WhiteHouse.gov website, or whatever... But you'll see this mandate with lots and lots of requirements for cybersecurity and everything else... And you're go... |
We just talked about how basically the go mod proxy, part of the thing that is also part - for those who basically when you download the modules and you see this weird go.sum file, with all the checksums in there and whatnot - all these things play a role into verifying that the version of the piece of software that yo... |
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