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**Autumn Nash:** It's wild. |
**Justin Garrison:** It's okay to not have your identity be tied to a tool, or a job, or... You can just have a different identity outside of that. |
**Dave Eddy:** Yup. And you can spot it so easily when someone gets defensive when someone uses something that they don't use, and it's like "Who cares?" I can't imagine caring about this. It's crazy to me. It's a text editor. It's a scripting language. Use whatever one you're comfortable with. |
**Justin Garrison:** Speaking of identity, you said you started with music... And I've only recently started listening to your music. Great piano music, just kind of background \[unintelligible 00:13:40.23\] |
**Dave Eddy:** Well, thank you. |
**Justin Garrison:** But also, you do a bunch of woodworking too, right? |
**Dave Eddy:** Yes. |
**Justin Garrison:** You're usually in your garage, and you're like -- a bunch of wood everywhere. What other hobbies do you have? |
**Dave Eddy:** It's so funny you would say that. My first live stream I did on Instagram, a month ago now, I was just in my garage in front of the woodworking and people kept asking me questions. Like, "Do you guys really want to know about this? That's crazy. I thought you guys were only here for the programming." And... |
Actually, I don't know what day this podcast will come out, but I can tell you right now when we're done I'm about to head to Best Buy so I can pick up the new Zelda game. So I'm gonna be playing that for a while. So that's definitely something I'm interested in. |
**Justin Garrison:** Nice. So you have this You Suck at Programming kind of like - almost like a meme now, in some cases. That's the brand that you're kind of doing all of this under. You've been doing it on multiple social media accounts, but also, your website, when -- I don't remember when I saw it, but you said you... |
**Dave Eddy:** sh. |
**Justin Garrison:** sh. Of course it's sh. Oh, my God. Of course. |
**Dave Eddy:** .sh. Of course. |
**Justin Garrison:** But you can curl it and you get the plain text, with the links, everything else. I did that once. Like, nginx, config... I want people to curl this, and you can just find the agent, and then send them the text file instead of the HTML. And it's a fantastic little Easter egg. And when I did, I'm lik... |
**Dave Eddy:** Oh man, I will go the extra 10 miles if it means committing to the bit. I am absolutely here to just go in hard. Like, if you were to ask me "Dave, is Bash the best programming language?" I'd be like "Well, there's all sorts of languages. They're all good for different use cases, and it depends on what y... |
**Justin Garrison:** \[16:21\] And to the point earlier about like JavaScript - I'm pretty sure there's more Bash written than JavaScripts in the world, of just like people at terminals in history files. That's like - you're writing code, and I always feel this knee-jerk like "Oh, people say it's not a programming lang... |
**Dave Eddy:** Oh, man... Regret. It's so funny, I don't actually regret writing anything in Bash, because like you mentioned, I kind of reach for it first, and then if something evolves beyond Bash or needs something that Bash doesn't have... So this would be like very strict data types, or being able to parse structu... |
But no, so I wrote that and it was originally in Bash, and then I needed something faster. I just needed it to execute in parallel, I needed it to make it work on a Raspberry Pi, and have it go quickly... So that's when I switched it over and wrote it in Rust. So that's kind of -- I don't regret writing it in Bash, it'... |
**Justin Garrison:** I've had three rules for myself, ever since I wrote too many wrappers in Bash. My rules for when a script grows up or moves to a general-purpose language is either it grows more than 100 lines... I don't include comments, because comments are usually half of the script anyway. But more than 100 lin... |
**Dave Eddy:** Oh, it's so funny you would say that... Before I get into the Rust thing, just jumping off what you said right there - you reminded me of a question that someone asked me... Basically, how do I know when it's time to leave Bash? And I told them, I was like, I just sort of have a line in the sand. Once I ... |
But then when it came down to Rust, I can tell you a quick little story... 2020, end of 2020, I quit my job and went unemployed, by choice. I was burnt out, I'd been working for like 10 years at that point, and I just wanted some time off. I had some money saved up... End of 2020, people weren't doing much anyway, so I... |
\[20:20\] So it was like 2021 when I really went heads down and doing it, and started writing software just to get better at it. And then I think about, I don't know, six months after that, I was like "Not only did I learn this, I like this. This is like my new favorite language." I really, really like Rust... So yeah,... |
So yeah, that's kind of how I got into it. And then when there were jobs opening up, when they wanted people who knew Rust, they were okay if you only knew a little bit of Rust, and I actually knew more than most jobs even needed, so I was like "Oh, this is perfect. This is great." |
**Autumn Nash:** Is there a reason why you picked Rust, besides the fact that you learned it, over Python? Because usually when I feel like something's too complex for Bash, I go to Python, because it's like kind of a -- to me it's like my go-to other scripting language... But is it just because you were like already l... |
**Dave Eddy:** I have a couple answers to that, actually. I learned Python like 10 years ago, but I only know it decently well. I'm not super-great at Python. But for me, I sort of view Python and Rust differently. Python's for scripting, and Rust is my compiled language, so I can get closer with like lower-level syste... |
**Justin Garrison:** For me, moving off of Bash is usually a question of "I need someone else to also run this", which is why once I have an array or I have more than two args, I'm like "Someone else is going to mess this up", because they don't have the same assumptions that I have going into it. And once I have to gi... |
For Rust, I absolutely love the ecosystem. Like, crates and cargo is so fantastic. The compiler is wonderful. But I had the exact opposite kind of reaction to reading the Rust book, right around the same time. I think it was during COVID. I was like "I'm going to read the Rust book", because I wanted to learn a new lan... |
But that was definitely something that -- to me, after reading the book, I'm like "I really like things about -- all the things I hate about Go, I like about Rust." But I'm more familiar with Go, to be able to write the software that I'm like "Oh, I'll just kind of deal with all the things I kind of hate in the ecosyst... |
**Dave Eddy:** \[23:52\] Yeah, I definitely think that's interesting. I get a lot of comments like "Why would you do this instead of Go?" and the answer is "I just never dealt with Go." Like, it's as simple as that. I didn't avoid it, it just never came up organically. So I just jumped straight into Rust. I might have ... |
Because I know Go gives you that -- almost like scripting language-like environment, but then it gives you the speed of like a compiled binary. And it has a lot of nice stuff built into it. With Rust I'd have to pull in like Tokyo if I wanted some sort of task managing thing that could manage threads and tasks that are... |
**Justin Garrison:** I mean, I know a lot of people that got into Go because of containers and Docker and Kubernetes, and that whole space that was already written in Go... And they're like "Oh, if I'm going to modify or wrap this stuff, I'm going to use those libraries anyway... So I'm going to learn it." How have you... |
**Dave Eddy:** Yeah, containers definitely come in handy. They're used in a lot of different places, but I can kind of just avoid them usually, because I'm installing things -- if you're doing like a firmware upgrade or something, you're not really doing it in a container, you need to have bare metal access to the mach... |
**Justin Garrison:** I have done firmware updates from containers. I don't recommend it. |
**Dave Eddy:** Okay. Fair enough. Yeah. |
**Justin Garrison:** It was the first time that I've really found the flexibility of Kubernetes in a bad way, where I deployed a daemon set that upgraded the firmware on all the servers... And I was like "This worked." I was terrified the entire time. But also, that Kubernetes thing gives me the escape hatches that I k... |
**Dave Eddy:** Actually, I think you touched on something really, really important there... You said that it gave you the escape hatches that you want. I think one of these things is frameworks work so long as you're willing to work with them. So if you're willing to work with Kubernetes, then you can trust all that st... |
For me, it's difficult. I kind of start from the lower level. So when I see a high level abstraction like that, I'm like "My escape hatch is like kill -9." My escape hatch is just stopping this. And if that doesn't work, or there's something weird going on, then I don't really know what I'm gonna do. |
But I get comments like this all the time, where people are like "Yeah, what do you think about Kubernetes?" Or my favorite, "What does your Kubernetes setup look like?" and I'm like "I've never touched it. I've absolutely never touched it." And they're like "How did you tech and you've never dealt with Kubernetes?" An... |
**Break**: \[26:57\] |
**Autumn Nash:** I think what you said earlier was like really spot on. People are always like "You don't use Kubernetes", and I'm like "Docker was like before Kubernetes, and people are still using Cobol, so..." |
**Dave Eddy:** Yeah. It's interesting to talk about people too just with Docker in general, where they're like "Yeah, Linux containers." |
I was like "Yeah, I remember that." Lxc, you have Linux containers in the kernel, and like Docker, and they're like "I don't think Docker uses \[unintelligible 00:31:00.28\] Well, it doesn't now; it changed, and now it has like lib container... And people are like "Wait, what are you talking about?" I was like "How do ... |
Linux is interesting. I don't even know Linux the best in terms of kernels but there's like cgroups, there's namespaces... There's so much that goes on there. But when it comes to the higher level software like Kubernetes, I don't know. |
I know it uses YAML, I think... That's about all I know about it. |
**Autumn Nash:** It's amazing. |
**Dave Eddy:** Yup. |
**Justin Garrison:** People forget about like cgroups in general. I wrote cgroup namespace processes before I ran containers. And I think one of my least favorite things about Kubernetes' success is the fact that lxc kind of disappeared. And I thought lxc had so many great use cases. And I like that it exists still in ... |
**Dave Eddy:** Yeah, it's cool. This technology is super-interesting. I use Illumos servers at home, which is the open source fork of Open Solaris. I have some FreeBSD... So people in these worlds, they've already known about this forever. Solaris has zones. Illumos has zones. That's their software virtualization. Free... |
**Justin Garrison:** A lot of times I wonder if Illumos was more popular, if things like Wasm would be as popular... Because the Illumos stuff with zones was like kind of along those lines, it felt like. It's less of a container and more of a Wasm wrapper. |
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