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**Adam Stacoviak:** Oh, yeah. That's why I love mountain-biking... Because mountain-biking is all about progressing. You're a skilled rider only once you sort of gain these skills to conquer certain technical terrain, or decline terrain, so a decent of some sort, with some technical involved... So there's definitely be... |
So for me, there's a place called Spider Mountain that I crashed pretty hard last year on. I love crashing, to some degree. It teaches you to get back up; it requires me to be resilient. That day, I was crushed. I had crashed hard enough, early enough in the day to ruin those whole entire trip for me... Because it conq... |
Thankfully, the pandemic has happened and I haven't had a chance -- and Spider Mountain is now closed because of things, but one day it will be open again and we'll be good to go. So I haven't had my chance to redeem. But still, there's terrain that I faced out there that I had once not gotten past, and now get past ea... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah, I'm so glad you said that, because that very much has to do with perspective-taking in the sense of "How do you think of failure?" A lot of people will see failure as a binary construct. And by binary I mean either or. I either can do it or I can't. I'm sure before you went out ridin... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. Part of the adventure is to discover what you'll find. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Right?! |
**Adam Stacoviak:** What terrain will try to defeat you or you can defeat. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Right, and I've heard it said a number of times, especially in the sporting world - I've learned so much more from my failures than I did my successes. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** So the challenges, when we perceive or believe ourselves to have failed, it has a lot of feelings of disappointment, which you're talking about. You're like "Man...! That stunk. That's not what I wanted." But when you can see it as this sort of approximation and as part of the learning pro... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** What do you think would happen if people took the negative things like that, the times when they fail, or perceived failures? If every time you failed it wasn't "I failed", it was "It's time to learn." |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** \[16:09\] Oh, I love that. Yeah, because that's life. I have had the opportunity to be much more involved in the sport of soccer than I ever have before, and I have fallen in love with it for just that reason... Because it's a very fluid game. You've got community, you've got your team, an... |
That's where it's maladaptive... Because we want this perspective of try, try again, try again. This is sort of ironic, given other episodes of "Try harder", that I'm saying "Okay, maybe the try harder approach doesn't work in all cases", but in the concept of resiliency and life, of going "How can I get back up?", and... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. I think the "Just try harder" - I look at that as sort of the mindless approach towards "Just trying, just trying", with no real wisdom involved. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Sure. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And I look at the try harder in the resilience lane as "Do it with purpose and wisdom, rather than just simply, mindlessly just trying harder." You're sort of like swapping out components. What's gonna work? You're constantly building this new puzzle to get to this picture. That's how I look at thos... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** So maybe what you're getting at conceptually is what I'd call flexibility. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Well, do you mean in terms of the phrase having a negative or a positive or a certain connotation? |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Well, as it relates to the effort we put forth, that I wanna be flexible. So while I'm gonna practice getting back up, the way I get back up. Whenever you're learning a skill, or you fall down, sometimes you might need some other buffering. You lower the resistance. So maybe you would try ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** That's what I did. When I crashed, I took the easy trails after that. Or the "easier" trails. Not all trails are easy, so it was just the easier of the available trails. So I just took it easier that day. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** And how did that go? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** It went fine. I still had fun that day, I still kept riding. I didn't just quit, even though I crashed and I was hurting; I still got up and I still went out and rode, I just didn't ride as hard, with the same of confidence, because I had just had a pretty hard crash that shook me up... But I still ... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah, I think I've mentioned this before, but coaching gymnastics in balance beam, girls fall a few times, as you can imagine, on four inches of wood. But it was always so important, within a really close approximation of time, to get them back up on the beam. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. The time between the fall and the get back up has to be... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Really close. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** ...pretty quick. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah. Because the fear sets in, right? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** \[19:54\] Well, I've seen this recently, too. I have an example. Last Friday my son, four years old, is now a bike rider. He can ride a bike. So this is awesome stuff. Moments before he was a bike rider he was saying "I can't do it. Dad, I can't. I can't." I was like "Buddy, listen. I'm right here w... |
So he got to this point... But of course, like any new rider, you crash a couple of times. Thankfully, his crashes aren't that hard. They're just sort of falling over. But in terms of falling down and getting back up, I'm like "Come on, let's go. Let's go." And I'm not rushing him, but I'm supportively saying "Let's go... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** It does. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Your perspective on what you're doing changes. The pain sets in, to some degree. The mind perspective of failure seems to set in. Or maybe even embarrassment, because he looks up to me and I see him in his eyes failing; if that sets in, all negative things begin to -- the roots get to be planted and... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Right, but do you see how learning is a critical process in that? The get back up and going "Oh, I can try it again, and do it a little bit differently." That also gets at this way in which our locus of control, things that help us be more resilient is believing that "I actually have contr... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Your son didn't have to get back up. He could have pushed back and said "No, dad." |
**Adam Stacoviak:** "I give up." But he didn't. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** But he didn't. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Do you know what he said? "That's why I've got these elbow pads on, dad", and he slapped his elbow. "They help me with my fall", and he was just so cool. "That's why I've got this knee pads and elbow pads on. They protect me when I fall", and he gets right back up. I'm like, "Buddy, that's right. Th... |
Having people who won't condemn you in failure is crucial. Because if you have people who condemn you in failure, they support that failure as being real and don't give you the resilience or opportunity to get back up. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** This is so paramount. I've heard it called failure recovery. We all have to get good at doing failure recovery. It doesn't mean "Oh, I didn't mess up" or "I didn't get hurt" or that didn't go well, but "I'm okay, you're okay, we're okay." This is part of learning. And it doesn't mean we're... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. I believe it was Thomas Edison quoted as this, and I'll have to double-check to make sure... But he was quoted as saying "I haven't failed 10,000, I've just found 10,000 ways that don't work." |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah...! |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Which is perspective, right? Glass half full, glass half empty. 10,000 failures or 10,000 attempts, or 10,000 ways that don't work. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Because one day I'll find the one that does. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** \[23:58\] So life, and even upsetting circumstances are gonna happen... But that we practice "How do I get back up?" It doesn't mean even sometimes we don't sit down for a few days, because we got really bludgeoned by some news or some other challenge... But the perspective of it goes "Wha... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Right? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah... It is nice though, and I wonder if you can have - maybe specifically to this context of my son, would he have the same kind of confidence if, not so much that I gave it to him, but I didn't support him in getting it? You know what I mean? Because it's easy to just give up on your own when yo... |
**Mireille B. Reece, Psy.D:** Well, I would say you provided a sort of framework that was multi-faceted... Because I suspect that you guys have talked about him needing his pads for protection at other points in time, right? |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
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