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**Adam Stacoviak:** So if you've had something happen to you, an educator might be aware of these different ACEs and understand how to help the child or work with the child etc. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Yeah, so these actually came out of a research study done by the CDC-Kaiser Permanente in California between 1995 and 1997. It was one of the largest investigations relative to childhood abuse and neglect and household challenges, and the implications in later life relative to health and well-... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. And if you're listening to this and you're thinking "I'm gonna tune out because they're talking about childhood stuff" - well, children become adults, eventually. You were once a child, and something happened to you and the way you are because of who you were and how you were brought up... So ... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Exactly. Why do we study history? So that we can learn from it and we can do better. Look, we don't pick a lot of the things that we experience as a child, but it doesn't mean that then we didn't figure out ways to navigate that. So awareness is the first step to change. If I don't know I'm ch... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** And honestly, for one, to be very specific on that one, it's a general social thing, it's being rude... But you can also choke. It's a choking hazard too, if you're talking and chewing; you can inhale food. \[laughs\] I mean, it's got multiple facets of why it's not right. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Right. Well, at least is the feedback that I've heard over and over again in my office, is that if things weren't bad enough, like "Well, that was just sort of what I went through. No big deal" - well, it doesn't mean it didn't have an impact. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** So when we're talking about these adverse childhood experiences, we're talking abuse as being emotional, physical or sexual abuse, which I think are easier to identify, generally speaking. You can make generalizations relative to what that would look like... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** And then household challenges... So you might be like "Mireille, what's that?" Well, violence in the home. Child abuse, and really even abuse, isn't always that it was necessarily directly inflicted upon you, but witnessing something violent or wherein there was a threat in some regard to your... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** \[07:52\] Substance abuse... If somebody else in the home was abusing substances... And then I don't know how much people think about this, but growing up, if you're a child and one of your primary caregivers has a mental health illness, like depression, wherein they really struggle to do the ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. Well, it's like a recipe missing an ingredient. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right? I mean, if you're gonna make something sweet, minus anything sweet in terms of an ingredient, it's not gonna be very... Sweet. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Yeah. Also included is parental separation or divorce, and then even if there's a household member who's incarcerated. So all of those would be household challenges relative to having one of the adverse childhood experiences. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Lastly, neglect - emotional neglect, wherein people just weren't really there for you emotionally. Maybe your physical needs were met... Or - that would be the other one, physical neglect; there wasn't anyone there to really run interference to assist you. You might not have had enough to eat,... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So we're saying that these distortions, these common distortions come about because we're trying to cope with adverse life events... Generally, in this case we're talking about it as ACEs (Adverse Childhood Experiences), and so mapping back to the childhood areas we're seeing when maybe it might eve... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Right. I like how some people have talked about it relative to micro and macro factors... Si micro factors being like biology, brain chemistry, and macro sort of like social interactions and culture... And in the same way, thoughts and beliefs. So it's not a far reach to understand that as a k... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Is that similar to kids not having guard rails in terms of discipline or things like that, where you'll see -- for example, an organization like YoungLife might reach out to kids who have not so much non-caring parents, but they're just different, I suppose, and they have less rigidity, less curfew,... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** \[11:47\] Yeah. One of the other things is just relative to habits. If I've practiced a way of relating to myself, or this is what I learned, this is the way to grandma's house we go, as a child we don't tend to be as self-reflective, generally speaking... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** No. Not at all. We're in the moment. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** This current minute and the next ten minutes is usually-- |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Right. So what happens is you develop a way of thinking, and you went that way, and then you repeat that, and then you keep repeating that. I mean, I can't even tell you the number of people throughout my career who have been in my office and are like "I don't know how I got here. I don't know... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I do that, yes. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** \[laughs\] |
**Adam Stacoviak:** I'm just kidding. I'm twiddling my thumbs now. \[laughter\] |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** But you know, without somebody sort of being a mirror and a referee, we might not be aware of the thoughts that we think, and that's why we're having a conversation like this, to recognize "Hey, do I do this?" I mean, I can't even tell you how many times while I was in graduate school and lear... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Right. So from a layman's perspective, my thought is like "Well, the first line of changing decision-making, changing our thinking for our audience is awareness. So hey, let's do a show about these distortions, and at least bring up a few, and link out to maybe a longer list, more distinguished list... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Well, one of the first recipes I recommend for people when they're trying to change - and I think this is across a lot of different fields - be it "I wanna change how I manage my finances, I wanna change how I eat, I wanna change how I think - track it, to recognize like "Oh, I realize that I ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** There's a well-known saying, and I think it may be generally in business, or startups, or just building a product and running a company... It's "You can't change what you don't measure", right? |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Yeah. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So if you measure it, you're at least paying attention to it, you're aware of the ups and the downs, you're aware of the norms, you're aware of the norm line in comparison to the extreme lines up and down... And you can begin over time to map what is a rational way to see this data point, whatever i... |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Right. One really important thing that I wanna point out is as part of the framework throughout this conversation today was something that a psychological anthropologist by the name of Natalie Smolenski said. She noted "Cognitive distortions are caused by underlying emotional issues that have ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yes... Yes. \[laughter\] |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** \[16:00\] It could be the thought that triggered a feeling, and this is why, again, there's so much hope for change, and thinking and feeling differently, because I can recognize "Oh, here's a pattern. When situation A occurs, I respond with B." Or "Wow, I tend to feel like B, and then I think... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So as we describe a few of these, or link to the list, if you identify them, thinking this way - well, what was the emotion or the cognition that sort of was a cause and effect of this distortion... Is that what you're saying? |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Mm-hm, yeah. Exactly. |
**Adam Stacoviak:** So kind of like trace back, map back to where it may have begun. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Yeah. Like, was there a situation that transpired? I think a lot about \[unintelligible 00:16:46.15\] because a lot of people tend to work... Was there an interaction with your boss or a co-worker that happened, that sort of created an emotion, and you were like "This stinks"? "Now I'm having ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** So one of the ones I wanna talk about today is emotional reasoning, and I think it's pretty self-descriptive... Any observed evidence is disregarded or dismissed in favor of the assumed truth of your feelings. I think because language matters, we can figure out nuances in how we say things... ... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. Can you give an example of dismissing or disregarding observed evidence because of an assumed truth or feelings? |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Sure. An example might be "I feel guilty because I didn't do what I thought you wanted relative to work. You told me that you wanted me to get this project back to you by Tuesday, and I didn't." So I'm really struggling with feeling guilty, but I had already told you on Tuesday "Hey, I might n... |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Gotcha. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** So I'm now continuing to be stuck in that cycle of guilt, as opposed to "No, I've got other feedback from someone else, that said "No, you're okay." |
**Adam Stacoviak:** Yeah. So that's a pretty common occurrence, I would say. Is there an extreme version of this one in particular? Or maybe project how it might get more extreme. |
**Mireille Reece, PsyD:** Well, I think when the guilt turns into shame, of like "I suck. I messed up. I made a mistake, so now I can't seem to do a job." |
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