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I know they pay taxes, but they don't Yeah. you know, they, they get paid a hundred and twenty-five grand a year. Which is more than twice my salary by quite a bit Uh-huh. and, you know, I'm going, like, I, I don't understand how they're supposed to be my servants and yet they're paid more than I am Uh-huh. and they work less, you know, less than I do. Uh-huh. Uh, the only the only problem I see with term limitations, uh, is that I think that the bureaucracy in our government as is in, with most governments is just so complex that there's a very you know, there, there is a learning curve and that, you know, you can't just send someone off to Washington and expect, you know, his first day to be an effective, uh, Congress person. Uh, I think, I think there really is a, there's a lot they need to learn, you know, when you get there. I think, I think that's true, however, I think that's always been true. Uh-huh. I mean, that's true of the Presidency, too, and we seem to be able to get along with the President turnover ever eight years or four years. And, uh, Yeah but, They,
I mean, there is a lot to learn, but maybe it will keep them on their toes and a little bit more active in trying to catch up. I think two years is too short. Uh-huh. I think it would have to be extended, uh, you know, a term limitation for Congress would be like three terms or even four terms or you would increase the length of the, of each term of a Congressman. Uh, but maybe standardizing on, on a, a four year term for Congress Senate and the, the Presidency and then, uh, staggering them so that you don't, Uh-huh. we aren't tackling a massive ballot every four years. Uh, the other, the other thing that, uh, bothers me about our system is just that, uh, in, for, for, in, in, in Congress the amount of power any, any particular Congress critter has is based on their seniority and how long they've been there so it's, you know, for, you know, uh, so unless you have actual, you know, across the board uh, limitations, the, uh, you know, the idea of, well, we're going to just, we're, I'm, I'm just going to, you know, vote, vote against the incumbent every time doesn't work, you know, it's going to wind up hurting your state if all the other states aren't doing it at the same time. Uh-huh. I think, I think that that's true, but then you have, you have the same abuse of power on the flip side of that coin. Uh-huh.
Uh, the C I A is moving out to West Virginia which is a really stupid location for a large agency like that and for almost any agency. I mean, the action isn't in West Virginia. I hate to tell the the senator from West Virginia this information, but it really doesn't the world does not revolve around West Virginia uh, as far as this country is concerned, the world does revolve around D C, you know as far as the politics in this country are concerned, the national politics Uh-huh and the C I A is a, a very large, very high profile agency and to have it located out in West Virginia, yeah, you know, it might only be two hour drive from here, but that's a two hour drive Yeah. and, uh, you know, it, it's a, I think it's a mistake to move large agencies like that Uh-huh. or is it the F B I. I don't remember, but I think there's, Well, I mean, I don't see why it makes a big difference the C I A because, you know, officially they don't do, they don't have any operations within the United States other than administrative. Yeah, that's officially.
Uh-huh. I mean, we all know that that's not necessarily true. But I, I think that there are, there are advantages to having seniority and, uh, or, not having a complete turnover every, some small number of years. I think there are, I mean there's an institutional memory that you need to maintain. Uh-huh. But I think that, uh, all, with all the perks that we've given them, I mean, I heard on the radio back a, a few weeks ago, uh, during the incidents where they were, you know, like they aren't paying their, their restaurant bills and they're bouncing checks all over the place Uh-huh Uh-huh. uh, one of the radio stations over here listed off every single one of the perks. Well, we have, we used to, when I was younger Yeah. we'd go every weekend. All right . But we haven't done whole lot of it lately. Yeah. I'm kind of into it. I'm, uh, kind of a sailor.
Yeah. I'm up in Minneapolis now, but I was in Florida so, uh, yeah, I was kind of into it for a while there. Were you sailboating? Yeah, for the most part. Yeah Yeah. I had a little sail, Well, we don't get to do a whole lot of that up here No Just motorboat's all we, What part of Texas you from? Uh, Nacogdoches. Okay, whereabouts is that? That's between Houston and Dallas. Okay,
all right. It's the oldest town in Texas. Is that right? Yeah. Wow, that's pretty wild. We have, uh, Lake Sam Rayburn out here and Lake Nacogdoches, so we do a lot of boating on. Okay, so you got some lakes around you can do that on. Yeah. You do skiing and stuff or, Yeah, little bit. Yeah? All right. Just got through snow skiing Yeah? Yeah.
All right. Just came back from Denver but, Yeah, that sounds good. Yeah, we've, uh, our, the snow up here is really kind of starting to melt now. Yeah, it, it, it was heavy when we were there though. Yeah. I didn't see any boats there, though. Not, not, not too many, no. But, uh, no, I just got back from a weekend. We went and, uh, had a, kind of a picnic in the woods type thing. It was pretty nice, but, uh, no, I, I have, uh, I had a boat last summer that I took out, a catamaran that I do, did a lot of sailing on and stuff. Yeah? That's a lot of fun,
but, uh, my parents are pretty big sailors, too, they're kind of into it. Uh, all we, all we have up here mostly bass boats. Oh, yeah, I guess it's pretty, uh, fishing's a pretty big thing, huh? Uh-huh. Yeah. Lot of, lot of fishing going on up here. Yeah. All right. So, where about in Texas is that? Is that centrally located or, It's, uh, well, you ever heard of Lufkin? Uh, no, what, what major city is nearby? Houston. Okay, and that's south or north of there or something?
Let me see, Houston's north. Yeah? Okay. Dallas is south. Oh, okay, all right. Well, that sounds pretty good. Does, uh, I guess the weather, does that stay pretty constant there or, It's, it's gets cold at night, and then warm in the afternoons. Yeah? Probably seventies, eighties in the afternoon. Okay, well, that's pretty temperate. Yeah, that's not too bad. But, uh, yeah,
have you done, uh, any other boating then or, No, I hadn't done any in a uh, lately, but that's all, I used to uh, have a friend that owned, his daddy owned a boat shop. Yeah? And we used to, when I was in high school, we used to go out, go boating every day just about. Oh, that's great. Yeah, I, And we had a different boat every day. Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah, I used to, uh, kind of be that way myself when I lived in, uh, north western Florida in the panhandle, I used to sail about every day. I'd work, go to work, I'd like to do some sailing. Yeah, it's a lot of fun.
It's, uh, especially if you get a, a pretty fast boat like those catamarans are pretty fast. Yeah, what, You can actually, Do, if you get one like that do have somebody teach you that or they just, Well, actually, I, I've known how to sail pretty much my whole life. Uh, my family's pretty into it Yeah. and, uh, I took sailing lessons when I was about six and then, uh Is it pretty easy? Yeah, it, it's kind of a thing where you get the hang of it after a while, you know, uh, just kind of get a feel for the wind and how it works and, and the physics behind it. Yeah. So it's, it's not too bad, it's pretty easy to get the hang of, I think and, uh, generally, everybody I've, I've known has kind of gotten into it,
but some people are more motorboaters, you know which is fine. Yeah. Well, that's about all we have Yeah, yeah, lot of people don't, don't see the excitement in sailing, but, then, again, they may they may never have tried anything like, uh, catamaran Uh-huh. and, uh, that's when you really start getting into speed. You know, you actually, some catamarans you can actually pull people behind, the skiers, they get so fast, you know. I didn't know that. Yeah, they get pretty quick, but That that would be something. uh, Yeah, yeah, I haven't, I haven't personally done that,
but, uh, the races, I, I work with a guy right now that, uh, races catamarans in the summertime Uh-huh. and, uh, he's pretty gassed about it. He's got a good, uh, What kind of, what lake do you all use? Well, he, uh, he's from Detroit Uh-huh. so he usually goes on one of the Great Lakes, I think, and does his sailing. Uh, for me, I, I go back to Orlando, uh, in about a month, and so, down there, basically just go to the coast. We're about thirty miles from Coco Beach and the east coast, and there's a lot of places there you can go, you know. So, uh, so that's a good thing. Yeah. But, yeah, so, what do you do for a job? Uh, I build transformers. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay, is that for T I
or, No, it's for Cooper Industries. Okay. Are they primarily electronic, then? Yeah. Okay. Well Well that, they have a, you know, worldwide, but Right. all we do here is make transformers electronics and stuff like that. Oh, okay. Great. Yeah, how do you like it down there in Texas? It's real nice. Yeah? Been here all my life.
Oh, no doubt. Yeah. Okay. I've never been to Texas. I've been to Oklahoma, but, uh, that's about as far as, Oh, it's, Oklahoma's nothing like it. Yeah? Okay, well, that's good, because I didn't like Oklahoma that well Okay, so what kind of luck you been having with buying and returning products? Uh, not too bad really. Uh, I had a razor that I got from Christmas that I just, I really didn't want it, but I got it anyway and, uh, it was a Braun and they were real good about taking it back. It wasn't a problem at all, so, uh, I was able to get that back pretty easily. Uh-huh.
But, uh, I don't know, I really haven't returned a whole lot lately. Have you? I haven't had to. It's, uh, the, every so often, I mean, I, I, I'm almost pushing it myself. Maybe I'll buy a shirt from G I Joe's and it shrinks too much and say, well, I should have known better, I mean, I bought it from G I Joe's Um. and it was probably made in China by slaves. Right But, uh, they, uh, most of the time pretty careful shopping anyway, I get pretty good stuff. Yeah. I think that, uh, aside from the fact all markets being internationalized Right like,
and if you want to buy American it takes real extra work to find. Exactly. It's probably a Japanese or a Burmese company owning and hiring people in the U S I was reading, Right, I was reading something in, uh, CONSUMER REPORTS tonight about that as a matter of fact. They were talking about cars, uh, the car issue just came out. And about how, yeah, you'd like to buy an American car maybe Uh-huh. but, uh, you know, the transmission may be made in Japan or whatever. Yeah. Uh, like I've got an eighty-six Ford Ranger and, and I know for a fact that the transmission is made by Mitsubishi. Huh. You know, so it's like, what are you going to do, you know? Yeah, really. But, uh, that's the way it is. I don't know, I, I personally feel that, uh, uh, if the Japanese cars are better and Americans buy them, you know, that's the way it goes and, you know, people, more than manufacturers should get a clue
and, you know, they should start making quality products. Yeah, I think they're beginning to. The, the days of don't buy a car made on a Monday or a Friday are pretty much going away and, That's what I thought, too, until I saw the CONSUMER REPORTS issue. Uh-huh. Uh, they've got all the American, well, all the, all the cars rated, you know, and, uh, essentially, I I don't see much of a trend. I mean, just like every other time that you look at it, the Honda Accords and the Civics are right up there. There's nothing wrong with them. Uh, and the same thing with most of the other Japanese cars. But then again you look at a Ford or especially a Chevy and they're pieces of junk. I know. Still at it, hey. Yeah, that's ninety, that's eighty-six through ninety-one. Wow. But, uh, I don't know, maybe they're getting better,
maybe they're starting to get a clue. Uh, Well, they got a three year lead time. It probably won't start really showing up until ninety-four or so Yeah, that's just it. Technology that comes in right now is, is probably not going to be implemented until, you know, quite a few years down the road. But, uh, The computer industry's where it's really dynamic especially for the consumer. Oh, yeah. Yeah, because technology is so, uh, you know, volatile and changing all the time. And can you think of any other industry where in software they, Uh, if the product is upgraded and a better version is put out, you'll get a free version in the mail . Yeah. Or, uh, maybe I say, well, you know, you paid five hundred bucks for this program, so send us twenty and we'll give you a really great upgrade. Yeah. It, uh, they keep up with it pretty quickly and that's, that's a real good thing, I guess.
Yeah. Uh, I don't know. And the hardware, well, I mean, all the chips that make up the hardware are a commodity and the MacIntosh is about the only one that's going right forcing I B M and the rest of the D O S world to follow along. Yeah. Right, they're kind of the leaders right now, you know. I used to see all those commercials for Windows, you know, and you're like, oh, gee, they're reselling a MacIntosh under a different name. Really, why don't they just say, almost a Mac for half the price. Yeah, you know. They'd sell more if they were honest. Exactly, almost is the key word, there, too, you know, because I, I really, I've used both and I really don't see an advantage of Windows at all. Yeah, it it's only an advantage for people who had to use pure D O S. base. Uh, Yeah, yeah that's true, too. But, uh, I don't know,
I'm really, I've gotten a little bit out of the, the personal computer business just because I don't have one at home. I, I do use a Mac at work but, uh uh, I really don't, don't do much with it at home Uh-huh. but, uh, Apple's sort of making a and they're ones were growling consumer, uh, need to worry about the Mac they're getting, like if you bought a power book straight off, a lot of them had to go back. They issued a recall because of improper shielding or possibly other problems with floppy drive. Right. Uh-huh. Yeah, you sound like you must, uh, work in the computer business. Yeah, I have one, I do desktop publishing at work and I have a machine at home and I belong to the user's group and I, I've been a Mac fanatic since they came out.
Yeah? All right. But, uh, technically, I'm not actually in the industry. I don't work a computer company. No? I'm an abuser. Well, that's, that's all right. But it's sort of like surfing on the wave of future shock to you know, keep up with the changes as they happen. Yeah, that's true. Something that I find uncomfortable is, you know, you, you want to buy something, say you want to buy a personal computer and you got to think about what kind of memory you want to get and what kind of technology that you want to go for, you know, let, let's take the example, the modem for, you know, Yeah. Okay, what baud rate do you get? Well, you know, it used to be that you get a twelve hundred So, um, how do you feel about the crime in your city? Is it, uh, Well, um, Minneapolis isn't too bad.
Uh, I know that there's been some increases in crime lately in terms of murders. Uh-huh. Uh, that's kind of gone up in scale and, and some other things. Uh, I personally had a little experience the other day. Uh, somebody broke my passenger window and stole a uniform out of my truck. Oh, really. But, actually, you know, when you look at, at Minneapolis as compared to where I used to live, it's really quite a bit better. Uh, because I came from Florida Uh-huh. and in Orlando, there's, crime is getting to be a bigger problem than ever, so. Oh, yeah. What part of California are you from? San Jose, California. Oh, really? I have a good friend there. Here, you know, the real problems are the gangs. Yeah . A lot of gang related, a lot of murders, uh, just in general the whole, we've only been here a couple of years. Uh, before that we lived in Colorado
but in comparison to Colorado, it's real noticeable. Oh yeah. Uh-huh. I mean you can just feel, I mean, I can just sense, I mean I won't even, I won't go to the grocery store at night. Yeah. Yeah, that's You know. And it, it's that kind of thing and, uh, That's really a shame when it has to constrain your activities like, Yeah. We have a neighborhood watch program in the house, uh, the development that we live in, which I think is a great way to reduce, uh, home theft, burglary, and things of that sort. Sure. Do you have that where you live or, Well, uh, interestingly enough, right before I moved up here, I'm an intern and then I go back down in May.
Uh-huh. Uh, but in Orlando, before I moved up, we had a real problem with it. Uh, we've been broken into in my apartment about four times in like two and a half weeks. Oh, no. And one of the things that I, I helped organize was a neighborhood watch type situation down there. Uh-huh. Uh, because they were just, it's one of those things where the new thing is that they operate in the daylight because everybody went to work, you know, Uh-huh. and then the houses were left unguarded, uh, but yeah, I think given that people are pretty conscientious about it, that's a good way to, to work it, with a neighborhood watch. Yeah. Well, you know, uh, also I've heard that, uh, the newest thing is a lot of people are specializing in robbing people during the time they're home. Like on the weekends. Oh, is that right? A high percentage of, uh, free time, I think it's like fifty percent of most people's free time is, uh, spent doing yard work outdoors. Oh. So they wait while you're out, outdoors.
They know the house is unlocked and then they just slip in. Slip in, slip out, you know. That's amazing. They know exactly what they're going for. Yeah. So, I've heard that's really on the rise as far as uh, you know, a new type of crime. Uh, Yeah, it almost seems like they're getting quite a bit smarter. Yeah Really, you know. Unfortunately, yes. Yeah, unfortunately it's starting to really, you know, look at people's habits and where they are at particular points of the day. Uh-huh. Yeah. Like one of the guys I work with really laughs when he looks at Minneapolis because he's from Detroit Uh-huh. and, uh, the, the crime level there, of course, is quite a bit, quite a bit, uh, more pronounced, uh Uh-huh.
but, uh, yeah. I guess, I mean, I think we've got a neighborhood watch program here in Minneapolis, I'm not real sure. Uh, Yeah, it helps to know your neighbors, you know. They give you, you're supposed to make lists of, uh, cars. Like I know a lot of my neighbors right around my development. If I see a car that's unfamiliar, we, we have a list is that what you, you did in your program? Where you have a list of license plates? Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was basically, involved in that, in the organization of it. Uh-huh. And then I left right in the middle of it. I'm not sure where we went from there, Oh, uh-huh. but,
Yeah. Well. Yeah, that, that whole thing of being alert and kind of noticing your surroundings, noticing people who look suspicious uh, activities like that, sure. Uh-huh. I mean, you, you hate to be paranoid but there are really only so many things you can do. You can have the house alarm, uh neighborhood watch program, you know, uh, as a woman not go out at night Yeah. Yeah. uh, you can do that which is what I choose to do. Yeah. One of the frustrating things about that is that you really are limited Yeah. even, even if you know that the threat is there it's against the law to set traps, Uh-huh. it's against the law to do a lot of things, you know. They could basically, uh, when I was getting robbed down in Florida, I was really considering electrifying doors um, things like that like Uh-huh. That's,
Uh-huh. they did in Miami that time. But it's not, uh, if you kill someone in your home, as long as they are in your home, it's considered self-defense though. That's not always true. It isn't? No. There was a, there was a case about two years ago where a guy knew he was going to get robbed Uh-huh. and essentially what he had done is set a, a a electrocution trap for the burglar in his own home. Uh-huh. Huh. The guy came in while he was home and, sure enough, he fell into the trap and was severely burned. He didn't die, but he was severely burned and he took the guy to court and won a settlement. Really. Yeah. So that really, that makes you think, you know.
Yeah. It's like your hands are very much tied. Yeah. Well I think if, if you had a handgun though, in other words it wasn't premeditated, you had a handgun, it's the middle of the night, someone's Uh, I've had, uh, three boys through, I guess, uh, some child care, each one of them and now they're in school so it's all over but, uh, I guess I would say it's not easy to find what most parents would want. Well I can profit by this because I'm due with my first in about three months. Is that right I guess, uh, the only rule, uh, I can think of is that I like to look for places with, uh, good respectable, nonprofit behind them like a university or a hospital or something like that. If they're associated with a college or a university, they're usually a pretty good bet. Huh. Uh, I think it's sort of the opposite of what you would want when you buy a car or refrigerator something. You'd like to get it from some good cutthroat capitalist company but not with child care. I guess not, I suppose you're absolutely right there. Yeah. For profit places, I would really look at them awfully carefully Uh-huh.
but, uh, when I was when my kids were young, I was teaching at a university and, uh, the child care center associated with our university was quite good so I felt confident that they'd do right. Uh-huh. Of, aren't don't they kind of use them for, everybody kind of use them for guinea pigs? For their for their pet theories or some such thing? Yes. But, yeah, I suppose, uh, if you're, if there is a psychology department or an education department around, you might find you might find that they're pushing one form of education or another, I guess that's true. But, uh, I never had bad experience in that respect Of course, you also tend to get people that are associated with the university and the hospital as the parents, and they, you know, pretty good people Um. Well, the thing I really worry about is, uh, the sexual abuse cases you read about. Uh-huh. And I mean you'd just feel awful if something like that happened. Yeah. I never really worry very much about it. I tend to think those are very rare but quickly exploited and made public
so, I never really worried too much about that being, uh, uh, the case with my boys. Uh-huh. Oh. Uh, I, you know, I think those things get into the headlines immediately when somebody finds out about them but Uh-huh. I don't think it's as common as, uh, the newspapers would make you believe Uh-huh. And another thing is cost. Oh, yeah I mean that, I know so many of my friends I went to school with who are having babies right now and they finding, in some cases they're finding it's just not worth it to work because it's all going out in daycare. Right. Um. Well, in our case, we made the decision that my wife would stay home until the boys were, uh, in school. And I'm really happy we did it, although it was very, very difficult. And I think it was the right thing to do Um. and we were, uh, we just decided that we would do it
and we went ahead but, uh, not everybody can make that choice and even, even though my wife wasn't working, we did have, uh, one or another of the boys in, uh, child care for just for part of the day. Uh, or a couple of days a week just so that, uh, other things could get done around the house and so on, so, So, we did look around. Huh. I think my wife is much better than I am at that walking into a place and getting a feeling for whether it is a loving and caring place or not and, uh so I would always trust her judgment on that. Huh . Huh. Well I'm just thanking heaven. My husband just got a new job. His last company, he was only working four days a week. Uh-huh. So it's, and he just got a new job. He's getting lots of overtime, he got a pay raise and so I'm just grateful that we don't have to worry so much about my working or not. There's absolutely no question that you're going to be the best child care provider for that kid so, yeah, do it as long you can I suppose.
But I think, you know, you have to look through a place and you have to get a feel for, uh, how they treat the kids and, uh, uh, what kind of staff members they have and how much turnover they have and things like that before you commit your child to them. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And I think you have, the main thing is that you have to determine that they're perfectly open. That you're welcome anytime without notice, in the middle of the day and so forth and if they're at all queasy about that then I'd look elsewhere, yeah. You have to start wondering if they don't want you. Yes. Right Huh. You have other friends that have kids, uh, being taken care of in, uh, child care? Uh, I have one but I haven't really had a chance to talk to her about that for a while. Uh-huh. So. But, I really think the news reports are, uh, tend to sensationalize the problems. Uh-huh. I think the problems are more ones of cost and resources and, uh, pay and exhaustion and you know, things like that, rather than these, uh, uh, really wild abuse cases that you read about because it make good copy. This is true. Yeah. CURRENT AFFAIR can get several shows child cases.
Uh-huh. Well, Why don't you go ahead and start. Okay. Well I think the court systems could stand some improvement. Uh, trial by jury is good but a lot of time a lot of cases, uh, is circumstantial evidence that, that convicts a person, which I don't think is all the time good. Because sometimes it's hard to get all the facts and to prove a person innocent, I mean prove a person guilty if you don't really know or you don't really have an eyewitness. And how can you convict somebody on circumstantial evidence is beyond me. I don't know. So you think if, if trials were held by judges or experts, that they, they would tend not to, uh, admit, not to convict people on circumstantial evidence? I think so. You know, I, I attended a trial in, uh, Germany when I was a student and, uh that's the sort of system they have. Uh-huh. The trials are held by a panel of three, uh, three or four judges who are, well, they're like lawyers I guess. They're experts in the law Right. and, uh, there, there really isn't a jury and, uh, uh, they do the questioning also. The judges do the questioning
and, uh they, Uh-huh. uh, I think it's a lot harder to get off on technicalities also because they, uh, uh, the judge is also sort of a jury, uh, but I'm not sure I like that I think I prefer the jury system myself. You think you prefer the jury? You think your chances are better? Uh, well, actually I think in most criminal cases it wouldn't make any difference whether it was a couple of judges or jury What, what I worry about is cases where it's the government against the individual. That's where you really need a jury of peers. Because, uh, anytime the government, uh, is the government against the individual you need you need the protection of ordinary citizens. Well, that's true. I think that's really the only thing. I guess where I would like to see the system change is, uh, uh, there ought to be a, a well I guess I don't think that, uh, uh, juries need to decide sentencing all the time. Uh-huh. I think maybe a judge is a better judge of that or, uh, Well, sometimes the sentencing is still, is not fair. I mean even if, well the jury, I guess they do decide that but, but, I'm like you,
in a case like that, most of the time its, I don't know, maybe I'm too, too, uh, uh, conservative when it comes to that. the sentencing is really light compared to what I think they should be in a lot of cases you know, uh, Yeah. Well if you drag twelve people into a courtroom, I trust them to make the right decision as to whether someone's guilty or innocent. That's usually a matter of who to believe and what facts to believe. Right. But people who don't have day in and day out life long experience with what prison is really like and what the options are, to ask them to decide for one case, on one person, based on what they see, I think that is maybe, uh, a little bit naive. Yeah. In Texas here, people tend to get whipped up into a frenzy and slap long sentences on people. Uh-huh Uh, it's kind of, uh, uh, a hanging jury atmosphere Right. But in a lot of places, I think people bend over the other way, but I guess, I guess I like the system that they have in some places where the defendant gets to choose whether he's, goes before a jury for sentencing or whether the judge gets to choose it. Some, some cases in some jurisdictions, they can do that. Oh really? I kind of like that system. Yeah.
Yeah. That's, that's not a bad system. But I, I do think it needs to be shaken up a little bit. Yeah. But, the thing is too, maybe they need more of a, I don't know, more of a expert types to, to be on some of these jury cases because most time you just pick, you know, Joe Blow or whoever and a good citizen or whoever and call them in. Yeah. Right. And lawyers blow sand in their eyes. exactly. I would like to see most civil cases tried before a panel of experts instead of ordinary juries. Right, exactly. Insurance cases and things like that. Yeah. Where and, uh, there would be more honest settlements instead of this, uh, tugging of people's heart strings and, uh making them cry and feel like they're doing somebody good by giving them or giving them two million dollars to make up for the pain and suffering Uh-huh Exactly exactly. So. In, I think, in criminal trials you need the jury as a defense against the government
but, Have you had that experience recently? Recently, I can't really say recently. But I think about, uh, about a year ago, uh, I bought a product from some company down at, uh, in Atlanta, Georgia. I believe it was one of these, uh, one of these, uh, mixers. These, like these juice machines and, uh the, uh, the blade they sent me at first that went into the machine, it looked, you know, perfectly okay Oh, yeah. but I found that, uh, it was made of some material which actually ended up rusting uh, after, Oh. even, despite, you know, diligent washing, it, it got rusty after about, uh, three weeks of use. And I don't think it was my fault because I, you know, I had made a point of like drying it off and cleaning it but, uh, it was really, uh, it was, I had to send it back after like, you know, the third week because I realized it was like, it was not, something was very, very wrong with the blade. Uh, what about you? Well, I don't have so much trouble with products as service. Uh-huh. I don't feel like that's as big a problem. I've had a few answering machines over the last two years just because I've had a lot of trouble with them working correctly. Uh-huh.
And I'm not convinced that any of them work a hundred percent. Uh-huh. Uh, the one I have now is okay, most of the time. Uh-huh. But that's it. But that's, that's probably the worst. My daughter has a charm bracelet I bought her that's guaranteed. Uh, James Avery. I don't know if you have that up there but it, it's a very good company. That sells sterling silver things Uh-huh. and uh, she has a charm bracelet with lots of charms on it, a lot of money into it by now Uh-huh. Uh-huh. and the catch broke and she was sitting in school on a carpet and when she stood up, it caught and broke and we took it back and they said oh, this was just obviously yanked. Uh-huh. This was yanked.
I mean they were so rude about it. Right. And so we wanted a different kind of catch and she said well it's not guaranteed. And I said, well put it on because apparently nothing's guaranteed so do it anyway. Uh-huh. So we got the kind we wanted and I was really disappointed with that. I felt that this was a company that should have been more reliable Uh-huh. and I happened to need a birthday present for one of her friends and I called there to see if they had it and the lady was very nice. And I said my goodness, I said you've been very nice, what's your name. And she told me and I said well I really appreciate it. I said there seems to be a big attitude problem in that, store and it turned out she was the assistant manager
so, Right. So I felt kind of good about that, you know. I didn't even know the person's name that had given me the hard time or anything Uh-huh. Right. but I just felt like, well at least I did something. Maybe they'll fix it. They might work on that, you know. Right, right. But I find attitudes are more of a problem. Service is more of a problem. I find, up here in the northeast, we have, uh, well we have these mail order companies like L L Bean and, uh, they are famous for, I guess, having really top-notch service. They've got, uh Really. I mean I've, I've, I, I have friends and family who order from them because you can, you can literally, I've heard stories where you can literally buy something from them one year, wear it for a year and a half, and even after, like eighteen months of, you know, reasonably satisfactory use, they will accept it in any condition
and they will gladly, no questions asked, take it back if for some bizarre reason you decide you don't want it anymore. Uh, they'll, they'll actually do things like this. I mean they're really, they, they bend over backwards service wise for you. I've, uh I've found also a lot of companies nowadays, have, they have eight hundred numbers you can call. That's really great. I guess if, if you call the any eight hundred number, uh, if, you, you can call up any eight hundred number directory assistance, and you can get, uh, the eight hundred number of the customer service support line for a number of companies. And, um, actually I've tried that with a few companies lately. And they've, most of them have been pretty good, but I, I was, one reason why, I, like I buy a lot of clothing through mail order is that, uh, if you buy through Bean or though, uh, I guess Bean's, one of Bean's big competitors is Land's End out in, uh, I guess it's Wisconsin somewhere. They, they are, uh, they're very good about uh, Huh. like the customer is always right and you know, no matter how crabby you might be over the phone, they are very understanding and, uh, they usually get, you know, they, they make things are, they make sure things are set properly if you're any way dissatisfied with their merchandise. That's really good. It use to be like that. Uh-huh. But,
I don't think most places are like that anymore. Well I think, I guess nowadays with the, uh, with the economy the way it is, I guess, there was a, there was a story on the news tonight about how, because a lot of companies are, uh, you know, things are getting rough out there, there's a lot of, you know, the morale among employees tends to go down and that, in turn, like, you know, Well, the question was talking about the juries and, uh, one of the things I thought about was a lot of the drunk cases that they were having, that, especially for repeat offenders that, uh, maybe there should be stiffer penalties for those people who come back again and again. Uh, so that, uh, a judge, I think, would be the most appropriate person to, uh, to be able to sentence somebody since they do it over and over again every day. Right. *slash error should be 'aa' Right. I, I kind of agree with that, because I think in some cases, uh, the jury may not even have, the information about other crimes the person has committed. Uh, I, I think that in some cases that's considered to prejudice the current case Right so a judge, you're right, should have the whole dossier of the criminal there Uh-huh. and if they're judged guilty would probably be in a better position to give an appropriate, uh, sentencing. Yeah. See I agree with you. Uh, one thing I heard was this, where they have, instead of going to the regular court, they have a, a mock court.
I mean, it's supposed to be all legal and everything. Uh, you go and you present your case, the other side presents their case and you're done with it. It's almost like the NIGHT COURT we see on T V. Uh-huh. Uh, and, uh, but it's not that we have, uh, such, it didn't backlog or all of the, uh, the cases that are, uh, all ready pending. Uh, so I, that was one thing I thought about that would be really neat if we could do it that way. In other words, not, not, there would be some types of crimes for which you're not guaranteed a jury trial? Yes. Now, I, I, I don't, there's a point on which we don't agree. Uh-huh. I would tend, myself, to say that we should continue to guarantee a jury trial for criminal cases anytime a, anytime a, one of the parties wants one. Uh-huh.
And I, usually it is the defendant, I guess, that wants to have the jury hear the case. Sure. So I'm not out for streamlining things to the point where we, uh, take that, you know, that would require a change in the Bill of Rights, I believe and so, and, and I wasn't, I didn't mean that Oh, oh, okay. I, I didn't mean that, no. Because, I mean, gee whiz, if I was, uh, uh, didn't have that right, you know, not to have a jury that, oh yes, I would feel, uh, you're right, that my civil rights had been violated. But I meant for some, when both parties agreed that yes, we're going to have a judge here. We're not going to have a jury, you know, let's get it over with. Sort of like car accidents, you know, Right. Well I think that's all ready possible. Yeah. I think, that you can waive the right to a, jury trial uh, yeah right
so. I agree that that should be encouraged. Uh-huh. People should know that that's an option just in case they feel they have to have a jury trial. But I think most lawyers do a pretty good job of making that evident to, to clients unless they feel they can, you know, tweak a jury into giving a different sentence or possibly, if it's a civil case, giving higher, uh, you know, awards of money or something since usually the lawyers get a percentage of the, the award. Right. Giving a different sentence. Uh-huh. The take. Right. Yeah. And I suspect it, in cases like, I guess we were supposed to be doing criminals though, rather than civil. Is that right? Well, I, I, we're at liberty to, to talk and, and meander as long as it's all on the same theme. Yeah. Uh-huh. Well, uh, in the case of, civil, uh, things, I think maybe the, the use of the jury is very, often to the lawyer's advantage and I think that may be where jury use is overdone, I mean there are cases where they could be settled, maybe out of court a little more efficiently. Right.
But the lawyers are really, uh, it's to their advantage to play to as big an audience as possible so. Uh, I was wondering too, if they were thinking of about the judge making awards in civil cases not just sentencing in, in a criminal cases. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh, I'm not so sure I'm in favor of that. But I am in favor of it for criminal cases so there's a difference of my view there for those two. Right. Right. Yeah, well you can tell I haven't been in too many juries judges chambers or anything like that Have you ever had to serve jury duty? well I was called once when I was nineteen Uh-huh. and, uh, but I was doing so many other things that they took pity on me and, I was doing school and things like they, they let me out. Uh-huh. I've never had to it since
and that was almost twenty years ago Uh-huh. It isn't, sort of amazed me they first caught up with me for the first time, in, uh, that would have been about, uh, twenty years too uh, uh, just last year and, uh, the case I heard was a criminal case and it seemed it really, trivial. It involved two bicycles. We didn't do the sentencing. The judge did. Huh. So How interesting. we, we rendered a verdict and then the judge was the one to do the sentencing. Uh-huh, Uh-huh And that was here in Wisconsin. So I, I don't know if that varies from state to state or if it,
I'm Nevin from Sunnyvale, California. Hi, this is Jim Bliss from Minneapolis, Minnesota. How you doing? Pretty good. Good. Uh, I guess the topic is trial by jury and how we should change that or how we would change it. Yep. Uh, I'm ready whenever you are. Okay So, uh, what are your, what are your thoughts on the subject there? Well I definitely think, like decisions have to be unanimous. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's probably a good thing. It's probably the safest thing. Yeah. I mean, it's to easy to get a quorum Yep and simple majority won't do.
No. And even like, you know, two-thirds majority, I mean, it's Yeah, that's, yeah, quorums are to easy to get. Yep. And there's always that, that chance that one or two people could be playing devil's advocate for a good reason, you know. So it's, it's definitely but, uh, I don't know. I could, I couldn't believe they suggested that judges should be doing the sentencing. Yeah. Like Gives them a little too much power Yeah I, I know of a couple of people at least who would be arguing with that. Or arguing against that pretty vehemently. But, uh, Plus, you know, you may be, you know, doing, you know, a, a guilty verdict but it may not be, you know, it may be for technical reasons Yeah.
About the only good thing I would say about that is it that it would, uh, hurry the process up a bit Yeah. but I mean even now we've got, I know we've got plenty of cases out there where people have been wrongly convicted and things like that and that's what the trial by jury. I know . I mean, jeez if, if the judge was doing it himself, without any checks and balances whose to say. Yeah. It, there would be much more of that Yeah no doubt. Are you involved in the legal system at all? No. But I . I tend to follow it just to, just to know what's going on. Okay. Yeah, yeah. I've got some friends that are lawyers so. Yeah,
I do too so. One of them just got his law degree. But, uh, to tell you the truth, I'm not real familiar with, uh, the system of jurisprudence the way it is right now. No. I really haven't studied it in depth. Yeah. I know a little more about civil cases when, than criminal cases. Which is, Yeah. it's more in how you present it versus, you know, who's right. I'm sure of it. Because a lot of those things, it's all, it's in, it's largely a matter of viewpoint. And who can argue their case better. Yep. Uh, it's kind of weird. I don't know, you I always think about watching the PEOPLE'S COURT or something. And how weird those cases get. It's just, Yeah. like, you know, you go say okay, we can't bring up this point because then they're going to, you know, the opposition will say this, this and this and
Uh-huh. And it's like, boy, the stuff that they can twist around is, Yep it's pretty amazing. And it's like the, the truth isn't really important anymore. It's, Yeah, it's not. And then you get people who, who bring in cases just because they want to bring them up just because. Yep. Like this, this friend of mine's pretty obnoxious and he really gets into suing people. And so he'll, he'll sue just about anybody just for the chance to get into court, and argue his case you know, It is. It's, it's wasting people's time and the taxpayers' money and everything else. *aa,sv but, But, uh, Yeah but it's for the more general, people don't want to take responsibility. Yeah. You know, it's,
And, and most of the time they're looking to place blame. Uh and stuff. Yep See, you're from California, is that right? Uh, yeah. Well originally from Chicago but, Oh, okay. I was just thinking I wonder, I wonder how, how the civil system or the court system must differ between there and say where I am in Minneapolis. I really, From what I understand, it's all pretty the same except when you get to Louisiana. And Louisiana is completely different cause it was based on the, what is it, it's based on common law and the rest of the country is not or something like that. Yeah. Pretty strange. But, uh, fortunately I never have had to go in even, even for jury duty. Yeah,
I haven't either other than, But, uh, that friend of mine's telling me that I might have to go in for, uh, as a witness. He may subpoena me. So we'll see what happens. But, uh, I'm not really sure how we could change the legal system to make it better. . Yeah. It's, there are too many big problems, you know. There's, there's such a backlog of court cases right now. You know, to try to get them all in in a good time I know. and we already have too many lawyers as it is. Yeah. And if it's criminal cases we, you can't put them in jail because there's no room left. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. And, in fact, they're even letting some go. Yeah. I, I, I'm originally from Florida
and it's like it seems like every year they let out more and more just cause they don't have room for them, you know. Huh. That's not a, that's not a good solution either. Not at all. I'm not real sure what the, What do you think about capital punishment? Well, I'm kind of in favor of it for certain crimes. Yeah. Which crimes do you feel that? Well, I think first degree murder, uh, probably warrants it. Yeah. Because of, so many times it's so brutal and just recurrent Right. selling, I think should also. Exactly. Recurrent crimes like serial rapists or serial murderers or whatever. Yeah I come from a state that has, well I originally come from the state that has, uh, the death penalty. I come from Florida.
Uh-huh. And, uh, they're pretty liberal on it. They tend to, like, fry people left and right. which, Yeah that's, go ahead. Go ahead. Texas is too. Texas, I saw on T V the other night, is the, has had forty-six in like the past several years. Yeah. So they're pretty hip on it too, I guess. They do it by lethal injection, at Huntsville. Yeah, okay. I think Florida still uses electric chair. Yeah Uh, I don't, I don't know. In some ways I don't like it because it's like they're playing God. Yeah. And that's not,
I don't think that's right. But on the other hand, there's a lot of advantages to it. Yeah. I think crime rates deterred a little bit by using it and, of course, you have some savings in terms of taxpayer money keeping people in jail or not. Um, Yeah. with Florida that's a big problem because there's so many people in jail that they have to let them out every year. They, Yeah. That's what's happening here. There is, like, uh, that's, in fact, a big gubernatorial issue is the the turnover rates of, uh, uh, repeat offenders being let out and doing it again. Uh-huh. Sure. And it's like, you know, that's a big problem but there's not a whole lot you can do about it because there's only so many jails you can build Uh-huh. and it's really, you know, it's, it gets to be a a big problem. Yeah.
Uh, go ahead. I wish if they were going to do it, they would be a little more consistent in dealing with who gets lethal injection and who doesn't. Right. Be a little more, you know, not being able to put it off for fifteen years. Uh-huh. Yeah. Because a lot of these guys, you know, they get in and they, they get off for good behavior and, I don't know, up in Minnesota where I am now, they don't have the death penalty. And you can almost sense that people are just laughing at the system, you know. Because they figure well, you know, sure I, I get thirty or forty years for maybe rape or something. Uh, but then for, if I, if I elicit good behavior I'm out in maybe five or ten. Oh, really? Oh, sure, you know. Goodness. I mean just because, like we said before, they don't have enough room in the jails uh, you know, there's a lot of incentive for them to be let out early. Uh-huh. Yeah.
But if you've got the death penalty hanging over your head, uh, I don't know, I think that may solve a lot of that. Yeah Maybe not solve it, but, I don't know, maybe , I, yeah I tend to think the repeal system for the death penalty is a little, little too lenient. Yeah. Uh, kind of takes away from the significance of the death penalty. Uh-huh. What do you do Georgeanne? I'm a graduate student at the University of Texas in Dallas. Oh, okay. Great. What program you in? Uh, audiology. Okay. Fantastic. Uh Yeah.
What do you do? I'm a doctoral student at the University of Central Florida. Oh, really. Yeah, I'm doing an internship up at Honeywell. Oh really? Uh, yeah. Neat. But, uh, I don't know. It's, it's an interesting issue. There's, like you say, in Texas there's been quite a few and, and in Florida in the last few years, I think there's been a lot. I can't, I, you know, I can't give you figures but, uh, Yeah. I just, this was in conjunction with the guy that was put in the gas chamber in California. Uh-huh. So, I think it, the forty-sixth in the last twenty-five years I think is what
Oh, is that right? they gave a run down that Texas Texas tends to be a little more robust and disciplined area then . Okay. Yeah, I, I kind of, yeah, I've heard things about that. I've heard that they don't mess around very much. Yeah. Uh, they, they don't get repealed as easily as they do. Like the guy in California got you know, twice before he went to the gas chamber and then they said okay, no, you don't have to go. And then they took him back. I mean, it just seems, Yeah, it just seemed a little inconsistent. Jeez, that's a lot of repeals. And then you have like two, you have these people who are serial killers that didn't even get the death sentence back when ever you know. Uh-huh. Yeah.
I don't know. I, I'm trying to think about other crimes that would warrant it. Uh, I guess, what is it, what's the policy now with treason? Do they, uh, do they axe you for treason or is it a life sentence? No, I don't, I don't think, uh, the military doesn't execute anymore so. Yeah. Or death before the firing squad or whatever. Yeah. So, I think about the only one is, uh, rape, Okay, I'm here. How do you feel about public schools? Well, our public schools are, are really poor, I feel. Uh-huh. Uh, I'm not sure where Georgia ranks in the nation but, uh, we're toward the bottom. Yeah.
And, uh, there's a lot of things that I see that are so obviously wrong. That you would think it would be easy to correct. Uh-huh. Right. But the system doesn't allow for the corrections Uh-huh. How about you? Well, that's interesting. I have a sister who used to live in Kennesaw, Georgia. Oh, yes. And, uh, she has a young boy. Actually has two boys now but only had one when she was there. And she complained quite a bit about their school system there. Yes. And, And Cobb County is better than the county I'm in. Right. She was in Cobb County. Right. I'm, I can't really say much about the schools up here. I really don't come from here
Uh-huh. I'm only up here temporarily on an internship but uh, I live in Orlando, Florida usually. Okay. And the schools down there, from what I know, are not bad. They're pretty good. Well, that's great. But I know that in some, I know in a lot of rural areas they're not that good. Uh-huh. For example, I have a brother in North Carolina and he says the schools there are, are incredibly bad. Uh, just terrible. Well, I feel that we're way behind. Uh, I have a son that is in the fourth grade Huh. and, uh, they have just now taken up division. Wow. Yeah And That is slow. uh,
my husband and I go to the store and we buy these math books and fractions and multiplication, division things and I feel like, uh, there are several areas that we're just really, really slow in. Uh-huh. And, uh, I don't blame the teachers as much as I blame the system. It is, What do you think's wrong to cause that? Well, well, for one thing there's not enough money in the school system. And the money they do have, they're not, they do not use it wisely. Yeah. Uh, she, my son's teacher has twenty-seven students. Uh-huh. And that's certainly is a lot of students for one person to deal with on an every day basis. Uh Yeah. Perhaps. but more than that, I don't think that they have the authority to command the attention of the children. Yeah. And when you have two kids in that class that constantly keeps the class in an uproar and you're not at liberty to do something about it, other than give them on campus isolation or send them to the principal's office. It it, you know, it can, it can really be bad. Yeah. Yeah,
that's, that's one thing I worry about . Uh, also I think, we have a lot of, uh, Hispanics There you go, uh-huh. and we have a lot of, uh, the county I am, I'm in, the minorities are mostly Hispanic. Yeah. Probably quite a few black people up there and and, No We're from a county, we're from the county they marched in. We're in Forsyth county Oh, is that right? yes, and we, and there's very, very few blacks. Oh, okay. Uh, so, so that's, uh, I, I hate to say, uh, it's not a problem, uh, because I hate to feel like they are a problem, although they are.
Yeah but, you know, it, it's, you don't want to seem racist or prejudice or whatever, but then again. But it is a problem Uh, especially in the inner schools, inner city. Yeah, there is no denying that, that, Sure, you know. Teachers, you have to admit that teachers have to slow things down for people who don't understand, especially if there's not a very well developed special education program at the school. Well, and you can't put all the children in special education. That's right, you can't do that. Uh, and if the parents do not care enough to take an interest in whether the homework is done you know. Right. See, I grew up in Nebraska Uh-huh. and the school that I went to there was fantastic. It, I, I really consider myself very, very lucky.
Uh, we had a school that had classes probably about the same size you're talking, twenty-seven, thirty kids to to a class. Yeah. But, But your teacher had control. Yeah. We zipped right along, you know. I, I was, I was doing mathematics, fractions and division and multiplication by the third grade, easily. Uh-huh. Yeah. I, I believe I was too. Uh, Uh-huh. But, you're right, you know. With all this, don't hurt the kids and don't abuse their rights, you've also taken something away from the discipline, I think. Uh-huh Uh, well, it, it really is a concern of mine because if we could afford it, my son would be in private school. Yeah. We just cannot afford it. Right. I was going to ask you if there, if that was an option.
Uh, if, Uh, I'm of the age that could have gone, although I didn't and, uh, I guess, uh, looking back on it, I tend to think it was pretty, uh, mostly a mistake. Uh-huh. On the other hand, uh, the more I learn about the history, the more I see it was incremental, uh, decisions. Any one of which was sort of understandable at the time. Uh-huh. And, uh, but on the whole I think it, uh, probably was the wrong thing to do. How about you? Well, I'm, uh, I, I was just, uh, in high school I guess when it, when it ended. Uh-huh. Ended up being, I was in the last, last lottery. Yeah. And I was glad it was over by then. Right. I've never really totally understood what our purpose was over there. Just because, you know, we didn't really do anything when we went over it seems like. Yeah. You know, we, uh, those people that I know,
I work with several that were over there, and for some of them it was just kind of, I don't know, not so much a holiday, I guess that's how they tend to talk about it. But that they just kind of lived out in the woods and ever now and then, they'd go and shoot their rifles and then they'd, come back and you know. But that they weren't really allowed to do anything. I, uh, to me it seems like we only went halfway. If even halfway. Yeah, it's funny. Tonight I was, uh, helping my kid with an essay on, uh, Stalin. And I was thinking in the course of talking to him about it, how, uh, in World War Two, the personalties of Stalin, Hitler and Churchill more or less defined the war and actually when you think back on the big events of the war, it was, uh, it was almost a personal struggle among these three, uh, I guess you'd have to call them great men in some sense. Uh-huh. Uh, they're certainly all leaders and, uh, and, uh, with their nations pretty, pretty solidly behind each one of them. Yeah. And I got a feeling that some of that was involved in the, uh, early decisions of the Vietnam war. That the, uh, people saw the cold war as, uh, you had to draw a line and, and defend it.
Otherwise there'd be, they'd get you someplace else. Uh-huh. Looking back, it seems like that was only partly true. That, uh, there might have been a better place to draw the line Uh, I guess you can, I guess you can say that a, a certain amount of resolve and willingness to fight, uh, brought the cold war to an end. But I don't think you can just fight anywhere just, just in order to, uh, call the bully out and beat him. And I have a feeling that that's part of what was involved in the Vietnamese war. They felt like this was a place where we could draw a line, beat them and they wouldn't come forward. And, uh we were wrong But I, uh, you know, the, like I said, the more I hear about it, the more I can see each decision that was made as being understandable. But the accumulative effect was to really get into a, a hopeless situation where, and as you say, uh, going halfway was probably worse than, uh, committing, uh, committing to a completely and, uh, winning it, whatever that would mean. Yeah. Well, I, I, I think we did, I think we did learn some lessons that we weren't, uh, we weren't prepared for, I guess the best word would be the atrocities of war. Yeah Uh, I mean the other wars seemed like a valiant war. I mean they seemed like a valiant thing. Yeah. You knew, you knew who was good. You knew who was bad.
Yeah. And it was a, it was a traditional the traditional battle of, kind of good versus evil, if you, you know whichever way it is. Well you're not, But in, in the Vietnam war it seems like it was, a, a, the sides and the lines that were drawn are all confused as to who's good and who's bad and and, uh, you know, the, It's ambivalent, yeah. even, it seems like even the people, you know, had the South Vietnamese, the North Vietnamese and, of course, the Laotians and the Cambodians weren't even supposed to be involved. But, What, what about the domestic effects like I was thinking that maybe the most important effect it had was to make it, uh, possible and even popular to, uh, criticize the government. And they, that pendulum started to swing, uh, maybe even too far. To the point where, uh, uh, supporting a government decision in foreign policy was sort of optional from the Vietnam war on. Yeah. Yeah. And that tradition is still,
I mean it's dying now, but it's still alive as opposed to, this Desert Storm stuff may have, uh killed it. Yeah. But I think that was one of the biggest, that, you know, the, uh, the domestic unrest, Are you in the middle of anything? No. I'm not in the middle of anything. I've just, about the last thing I did about maybe, oh, close to a year ago now I guess, I, I helped my dad add on another bedroom on to his house. So, I guess that, The whole thing? Yeah. That, that was fairly large undertaking. A, a, it's a bedroom and a walk-in closet and a bathroom all on one side of the house. Did the framing and all? Oh, we did it all except for the sheetrocking. Huh.
That was the only thing we didn't, you know, putting the ceiling up and things like that we don't, we, we weren't sure how to do that and. and I did all the sheetrocking and the interior work Yeah, that's the exact opposite. We did all, put the roof up and did all the roofing and the, put all the interior walls up. We just didn't do any of the sheetrock wall work and that's it because you have, you know, get those joints to go together and whatever you have to put in there to get the, to take the gaps out between the sheets and on the ceiling and all that. Yeah. I we didn't know a thing about any of that and so, It's, it looked very hard to do My wife wishes I hadn't done that. so, we figured well just, I didn't think we could do it and make it look professional. So, we left it, left it to somebody who does it for a living. But, I think it takes about three or four times before it gets easy. Yeah *should be 'b'
Probably so and I, we'd never done it so we just left it alone. But that's, I guess, I'm only twenty-one so I, my, my vast experience of home, home owner's knowledge is not very much. So it's just what I have to do, more or less, around the house, you know, for my parents so. Did you, you framed it in uh, on, on, you framed in new square footage or was it stuff that was already, uh, enclosed? It was brand new. Brand new . We started with the backyard and turned it into part of the house so it was, and you knew how, you knew how to do the framing? Uh, well my dad knew how to do most of it, you know. Uh-huh. He, he'd, we'd gotten a couple of books and then he just started doing it. I don't know.
He, well he did all the flooring himself. He put the whole, the whole floor in and then I just started with the walls and the roof and started there. And then we were, put a, like a, not, not necessarily a garage, but just like a, off the side of that after we had the house part made, we just decided we'd carry the roof out a little bit farther and put a carport more or less. It's not, you know, it's not enclosed. It's just somewhere to drive another car to, to park and it's, Do, do you build on slabs down there or did you build it up off the ground? Uh, it's off the ground. On the piers? Uh-huh. It's on about uh, twenty-two inch piers, something like that. Did, You had those poured So. or you did them yourself? Uh, no, those, those are, we did those ourselves
so. You just put forms in the ground and fill them with concrete? Yeah. Huh. Exactly, so. It's, Well, the last thing I did completely myself was an outside deck which I was pretty proud of Yeah, those those are, we'd, I've done one, I helped somebody do one of those before. Those are, those are, you know, you can buy them in kits but we didn't do that way. But it's, No I designed it from scratch and did it did a pretty good job. Yeah. Those are nice. They're pretty forgiving, you know.
You can always tear stuff out and redo it. It's a, Yeah, yeah. That's not near, like building a house or anything but, Yeah, those are nice. Especially when you get done, you've got something, you know. I don't know, I like them. You just sit down on on the deck and do whatever. Have a barbecue Yeah. I I built it two levels and with a big toy box and some benches and, uh, a backrest and all that stuff. or, I, Yeah, that sounds nice. All done by yourself, huh? I had a friend with a tractor who dug the pier holes
Designed, so we could pour concrete and support it with a, a nice firm four by four posts. And, uh and then the rest of it I just did. Yeah. A, a contractor friend helped me, uh, with some of the, uh, foundation work but, uh, it was pretty, it was about four or five hundred square feet. The same size as the addition that I just put on so. Yeah. That's pretty, that's a good size deck. Yeah. So, yeah. That's, It's, uh, not that expensive. I think it cost me three dollars a square foot and, uh, you know, no less than that. Yeah. That's not, cost me about five hundred dollars, six hundred dollars all together. Yeah,
that's good. That's not bad at all. Didn't have to, Yeah. the wood may it got surprising as to the fact that how much wood is, you know. To get, to get good lumber it costs, I don't know about Dallas, but even in this little town, it's, it's not cheap at all. I was surprised. I'd be surprised if it wasn't, uh, cheaper where you are. It's probably more there. Well, yeah. It probably comes from where you are. Yeah, yeah, that it probably does. Most I, I'm not sure but, When I drive through that area, that's all I see is pressure treated, pressure treated lumber yards.
Yeah. It's nothing but woods up here, down here. Yeah. I don't, I haven't, I mean, I haven't, I used to live in Dallas. In Arlington, actually. And, but that was just when I was a kid so I don't really know what the cost of living is even like in Dallas anymore. But it's, I don't know, we're a college town so that doesn't help us out any. Right. East Texas. We have, gas is a dollar dollar twelve a gallon, so that's probably about what you're paying Huh. so. Yeah, my current project is a walkway which I'm building around the house and out to the backyard to, uh, you know, digging it out and laying sand and putting, uh, pavers on top of that so. Yeah.
That's a lot easier. You've got something going all the time. Well, what do you think in terms of, uh, benefits? Well, personally, you know, I think, you know, of course I'm sure we're familiar with the exact same benefit package and I think that, uh, we've probably got one of the best around, you know, besides, they tend to offer adequate vacation, I guess. And the paid time off is wonderful, and, uh, one of the things that we were just talking about as a matter of fact this week at work was the CODA Plan that is offered and I think that is just a, a fabulous one, so. I don't know if you participate in that or not, but Absolutely. isn't it great? It's just a, it's just a miracle that how fast that adds up, you know. Well, I have to agree with that. You know, I was thinking about, uh, importance of benefits and that kind of thing, other than salary while I was waiting for, uh, the system to find a, a respondent. Uh-huh Uh-huh. And I started thinking that over the years that importance has changed
and I suspect that that's probably true for everyone. Yeah. When I was much younger it was, uh, less important to consider retirement and less important to consider medical benefits. But as I grow older and my family grows, it, the medical benefits are more important and the retirement is more important. I had never really thought of it that way but I guess that's true, I guess that's true. I'm still young enough that, that, uh, the vacation's real important to me and the paid time off is real important to me and, and that kind of thing. But, uh, you know, I was just, as a matter of fact, I just, uh, celebrated my fifth year at T I the end of last month and, uh, kind of started looking through the, the book because of that, you know, now that I'm a hundred percent vested, you know, you kind of look through the book and see well, what exactly, what does that mean and what is the pension all about and, you know, when you're, when you're, you know, in your, I'm only in my late twenties now, so you tend not to think about retirement. But, uh, it's, I guess now is the time to think about it, so. Does T I have a pretty good retirement package, do you think? I think they have, uh, one that we need to recognize that we're going to have to supplement ourselves. Yeah. And that's certainly one of the reasons that I'm sure that they've begun the, uh, CODA Plan.
Uh-huh. It's certainly a, a supplemental way, uh, Uh-huh. and I suppose if, maybe in, in your instance, if, if you're started with T I in your early to mid-twenties, and happen to stay with them until you're sixty-five, then you'll have a very good retirement plan. Right. But I had another career first and then came to T I a little later. Uh-huh. So it's not, uh, all by itself it won't be adequate for, for my situation. It's not going to build up, quite enough, yeah. So, I have to find a way to supplement that. Yeah. Well, they just, they seem to make it so easy to save. You know, one of the things that we're doing which is probably the worst investment in the world, but I've got money coming out to buy savings bonds, just coming straight out of my check. And it's probably not a great investment, but if I wasn't doing that the money wouldn't be being saved anyway, you know. I kind of have to trade off, you know. If you never see it you don't spend it,
so And it's, I understand though, it, Yeah. Uh, believe me, I do that myself. Do you? Yeah? And I disagree with you. I don't think it's the worst investment, in the world. Do you really not? I, I, you know, I, I debate about whether it's really good or not, you know. Well, it's, in terms of guaranteed return on investment and maybe you don't start looking for that word guaranteed, until later. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, it's shown a history that, uh, sure beats anything else. Over many, many years. Yeah, that's true. That's very true. We went, uh, and did a, a thing through I B S which is a, like a financial consultant type thing here in Dallas
and, uh, one of the things that we talked about with the counselor there was, you know, they work up this whole big, you know, proposal, profile for you, that, all the things that you need to work on and you need to do. And then one of the things that we talked about with her was, you know, the need to save for our son's education. We have a two year old, you know, and, and, you know, we can't start saving for college when he's sixteen, you know, we have to do that now. And, and uh, they have a way that they can figure, you know, what, you know, and he's two now, in sixteen years when he's ready to go to college, this is how much it'll cost, you know, and it's just really scary the thought of how much it's going to, it's, what it costs now is ridiculous, what it's going to cost sixteen years from now is just really scary. And they sat down and figured up that we needed to save like between fifteen and seventeen hundred dollars a year at a, oh, you know, six percent interest rate, to be able to have, you know, money for his college. And that's exactly what we have coming out in saving bonds, is, is, you know, about fifteen hundred dollars a year. So, I guess it, you know, in that way, at least we know that that's taken care of, you know. We, we can worry about other things so, I understand, that approach. Yeah.
That's, what, that's exactly what's happening in my family. Yeah, Is it really? Yeah. except that mine are a little bit older and, and I've shown them the numbers and said this is what's going to be available, all this is going to do is give you a little spending money while you're there. Uh-huh. You better make sure that you've got a scholarship. That's right. That's right. Well, that's what she said to us. She said, now, do you all want him to go to a, a state college or a private college? And, and our answer was, that, you know, we will have enough money available for him to attend a state college. And if he wants to go to a private college, he can get a scholarship to attend, you know. And that was kind of our view on it. It just costs too much, you just can't do it, you know. So, I don't know, it's, it's,
I don't, uh, it just amazing, it amazes me how much the, the costs are going to go up over the next ten or fifteen years. I just don't know how anybody's going to do it. And boy, it gets really scary when you start talking to them. Uh, I have a, an eleven year old daughter now who's saying, gee, Dad, I want to be an allergist, Oh, goodness. and I said, that's wonderful. I applaud that. Let, me explain to you how you get scholarships to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And, then her little brother's only two years behind Exactly. and he says, well, I don't know, I think that I probably want to be a veterinarian. And I said, that's great. Let me explain to you how you get scholarships to do that. That's right,
That's right Well, you know, T I, you know, T I offers some good stuff and then I think there's, I mean I think there's some negatives, but there's going to be some negatives anywhere, you know, no matter where you go. I have, you know, all, this is the first really large company I've worked for. I've always been involved in little small, you know, privately owned owned firms and so I've never had the, the big benefit package. So, I really don't know how to compare it to other big companies, you know. It, when I came on it was great because I had never had anything even close to what, what they offered. So, I've been real pleased. Well, that's fantastic, Yeah. and on whole I would say that they're equal to, uh, most of our competitors. Think so? Uh, I can see some, some potential changes that probably are, are, would not cost very much but might, uh, make things a little easier. Such as offering a, a smorgasbord. Having a larger variety of benefits Uh-huh. but, but here's the amount, that, that T I is going to pay for it, Yeah. Yeah,
and you can pick what you want and, yeah. now it's up to you it's menu selection, so, to speak. Right. That sounds really good. I read a thing, I don't even remember if it was in the DALLASITE or the INSITE one, about uh, companies allowing you, and they said that T I was looking into it, to purchase extra vacation days. Which I thought sounded like a good idea. You know, if you've been there, you know, under five years and you get two weeks of vacation but that's really not enough and you want an extra week, then you can purchase an extra week of vacation by saying, okay, I'm going to want an extra five days this year and they'll take a set amount out of each paycheck, you know, and they're deducting it all along, so you, you can have an extra five days off and be paid for them at the time, you know, you're really not being paid for them, the money is actually coming out of your own pocket, but it's coming out a little bit at a time instead of all at once, you know. So, that is kind of an idea that, that a lot of people sounded like that they were really interested in and T I said that they were looking into something like that
so, Well, I could certainly, personally stand seeing them go to a, a standardized compensatory time for overtime. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And I don't believe any of us would have to purchase any extra vacation days, if they did, that. Well, true. True. Uh, and, and I would certainly support something like four to one or five to one or, or, you know, maybe they want to get generous and make it three to one. Uh, as a repayment for, every three to five days that I work overtime there, they should give me one day. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it should be a standard and, and not left up to either the whim or the current overhead rate uh, that's running in each department. Uh-huh. Well, and, yeah, and, and a lot of that is left up to whoever your supervisor happens to be and what type of relationship you have with that person and, you know, I see a lot of differences, but, from one group to the next, you know, about who gets it and who doesn't get it, you know.
But that's, and that's that way with a lot of things, you know, there. It seems like, it depends on what, what group you happen to be in, what, what you're going to get and what you're not going to get so, Well, that's for sure. Which is the same, but, but then it's probably that way anywhere, you know, that's, Oh, I'm sure personalities always come into play. Uh-huh. Uh, just in this size of organization, Our community doesn't really have any organized recycling drive. Where do you live? I live in San Antonio. San Antonio! Uh-huh. Well, uh, I live in Garland and we're just beginning to, we, we just built a real big recycling center, that recycles everything imaginable Uh-huh. but, as far as, uh, trash pick up and stuff that a lot of the communities are doing, they're testing that.
Uh-huh. So, they're really not full, full force into it, but they're trying, so we're attempting it, but I wish we could do more. Yeah, there's, there's been no emphasis on recycling at all in San Antonio. I used to work for the power company here and there was discussion for a while about, uh, building a garbage burning, uh, electric generation plant Uh-huh. but it just wasn't cost effective, at the time. Oh. And there's, there's a little recycling trucks and things throughout the city but there isn't any, uh, advertising campaign. There's just not any push to recycle. Huh. I recycle my newspapers and, uh, my aluminum stuff. Right, that's what I do. But, uh, they make it as hard as possible,
it's not very convenient to do. Right, when they put centers and stuff like that. Uh-huh. Yeah, well we have those, uh, which I think is one of the best things is those cash for cans. I don't know if you all have those things around. Yes. And I really like that because that makes it real convenient because they're in almost every shopping center, and you can just stop by. Now everything else like the uh, paper and plastic and stuff you still have to go to the centers but, but for aluminum that's real nice Uh-huh. and I started doing that at work. Um, I put out a, a trash can and, and for people to put their aluminum cans in, Uh-huh. and that's really helped a lot, I mean, everybody's pitched in and, you know, it doesn't bother them to walk little bit farther put their aluminum in a can rather than just throwing it in their trash can. Yeah.
Yeah. So, I really, I really like that, but, people are really concerned, it's just that sometimes it's not the right people, which is really, really sad because, I wish we would do more Yeah. At work we started, uh, all the recycling stuff. They're really trying, I think what started it at work was that planet earth thing we had last year. Yes. And, uh, that really, started a lot of stuff off, but, you know sometimes it dwindles down. Yeah, where I work now we recycle all the computer paper. That's good. But that's about the extent of it. Well that's, uh, at least your trying something. Yeah, yeah, It's just yeah,
it would be nice if it could be more. And I'm sure that the, uh, driving factor for recycling the computer paper is that we get paid to do so. Oh do you really. We sell the paper back to the, uh, to a paper manufacturing company. Well that's a neat idea. Well, it, it defrays the cost of buying the paper, I think. I, not by much, but it does defray it some. Right. Enough to make it worth our while to have several bins through out the building. Well that's, that's really good, I mean at least they're trying. Yeah. Yeah I know a lot of companies that waste so much that, I'm even trying, you know that was one thing we noticed last week that we had some new people move into our building And they were just used one time and thrown in the dumpster Yes. and I thought, I don't understand this, you know. Yeah.
We're trying to cut cost and everything like that, and, and recycle and all that stuff and, and here we are wasting. And I don't understand, sometimes, the way, the thinking, the logic behind it. Well the last time, uh, someone moved offices in my building and, uh, the, uh, properties people came in with all, with the good cardboard boxes. Not the cheap ones of course. And packed everything up and moved them and left them lying around, Uh-huh. I, I took several home because I'm moving pretty soon and they're good boxes. That's exactly what I did. And they were just going to throw them away. Exactly what I did, exactly. Yeah. Because I didn't want to waste that. Huh-uh. And it's hard enough to find good packing boxes . Right and, and these boxes are, you can unfold them. Right.
So, you know, there, they don't take up much storage space. Exactly right, well that's very good Yeah, yeah I, I felt a little guilty about taking the boxes for about two seconds until I realized they would be thrown away, so. Right, right, I thought, well I was doing them a favor by taking them. I found about five, uh, about nine of them that had not even been folded into boxes, that were in the dumpsters. Yeah. Oh gosh, so many people need, so many people go to the grocery store and stuff and get those boxes, when, you know, these are perfect, Uh-huh. so. Yeah, the ones at the grocery store, half the time, they've pulled the lid off so you can't use it anyway. Right,

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