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[814.70 --> 820.02] make me mad too just listening to him like you know what you're right man so you know you guys |
[820.02 --> 824.66] have obviously heavily invested into javascript um i wonder what your guys take is on that is it just |
[824.66 --> 829.28] because we're doing it wrong or is there some fundamentally still like technology needs that |
[829.28 --> 834.36] need to be there before we can have robust reliable javascript apps so i actually find it a little bit |
[834.36 --> 839.50] ironic that dhh is so against the front end but i also understand it um and i i kind of want to answer |
[839.50 --> 844.42] the earlier question that you had which is about the history because it sort of feeds into this so i |
[844.42 --> 849.80] basically started my career working on a project called merb my open source career which was a |
[849.80 --> 854.60] competitor to the ruby on rails framework and essentially the idea behind merb was rails basically |
[854.60 --> 859.94] got it right but there are some problems that rails has most notably at the time the modularity and |
[859.94 --> 864.54] plugin system was pretty weak it didn't really have a well-defined way of hooking into the framework |
[864.54 --> 870.90] and you sort of just went out you the plugin system was like go svn clone some stuff into your directory |
[870.90 --> 876.26] and hope everything works and people weren't using ruby gems and the idea behind merb was let's get a lot |
[876.26 --> 881.66] more serious about what the plugin api actually is how plugins hook into the life cycle and let's try to |
[881.66 --> 888.06] keep the core a little bit smaller so that the things can be swapped out in a more predictable way that was the |
[888.06 --> 893.02] idea behind merb and when i went to work on rails that's sort of what we did and i worked on that for |
[893.02 --> 898.60] probably 18 months um revamping the plugin system rebuilding the controller system from the ground up |
[898.60 --> 903.60] to be built in a more modular way so that things could be in a layered way so things could be pulled |
[903.60 --> 910.88] out as needed and i think that that strategy is very effective because on the one hand the idea behind |
[910.88 --> 915.00] rails is everyone's doing the same thing all the time and because everyone's doing the same thing all |
[915.00 --> 919.32] the time let's have a single solution that the community maintains as a group that everyone |
[919.32 --> 924.70] agrees is the right answer right and that i think is very powerful because the alternative is what we |
[924.70 --> 928.40] see in the javascript ecosystem today for the most part which is that everyone starts a new project |
[928.40 --> 934.06] and then they spend like tom said literally weeks trying to figure out which set of tools is the you |
[934.06 --> 938.96] know the top the right point of at the hype cycle to to jump in and use it right so you have this |
[938.96 --> 944.08] mega hype fatigue every time anybody starts a new project they have to spend weeks trying to figure out |
[944.08 --> 948.62] what's the right thing and i think rails did a couple things really well it said we're going to |
[948.62 --> 953.30] have a shared solution but also we're not going to be like java and take forever to change every new |
[953.30 --> 957.54] version of rails is going to take a look around and try to incorporate and bring in things that the |
[957.54 --> 962.64] community has decided are the right practices but so at the point at the point of rails 2 there was a |
[962.64 --> 968.48] bigger problem which is that rails had gotten too big as an ecosystem to have one opinion be the only |
[968.48 --> 973.62] opinion and so there were some things that people were doing like rspec and hamel where people were able to |
[973.62 --> 979.82] sort of sneak in through the fact that ruby is a very dynamic language and you know break in say |
[979.82 --> 985.46] okay we're going to use hamel instead of erb but rails 2 internally was really not designed for this |
[985.46 --> 990.12] and so what was starting to happen was that new versions of rails tended to break plugins people |
[990.12 --> 995.22] would you know you may have in order to upgrade to rails 2 3 whatever you may have had to wait weeks |
[995.22 --> 1000.68] to get hamel or rspec to update and this was a really big issue and so i think what rails 3 showed |
[1000.68 --> 1005.98] was that you could have all the benefits of having a single maintained stack but you can build it |
[1005.98 --> 1010.48] internally in a nice modular way so that if people want to write a plugin that lets you swap out hamel |
[1010.48 --> 1016.84] or erb for hamel or test unit for rspec or whatever they want that you can have a reasonable assurance |
[1016.84 --> 1021.24] that things will tend to work and on the flip side you can have a reasonable assurance that the core |
[1021.24 --> 1027.14] team is still focusing on bringing in newer uh newer features from the ecosystem so a really good |
[1027.14 --> 1032.76] example of this would be the asset pipeline right i think the rails core team discovered that just |
[1032.76 --> 1037.16] you know concatenating javascript wasn't the end of the story we needed a bigger solution and so |
[1037.16 --> 1042.70] rails now has pretty much i think ember cli does a good job with this but a pretty close to best in |
[1042.70 --> 1047.36] class solution for uh building assets to the point where a lot of people will use rails just for the |
[1047.36 --> 1051.88] asset pipeline right and this is something this is sort of a balance that you have to that you have to |
[1051.88 --> 1056.66] have you want to build your stuff internally so it can be that you can um you can plug in at |
[1056.66 --> 1061.58] appropriate points you want to have a thing that the entire ecosystem uses and then you also want to |
[1061.58 --> 1067.42] make sure that you're able to iterate fast and i think unfortunately when dhh took a look at rail at |
[1067.42 --> 1073.26] ember at first and the entire ecosystem what he discovered correctly was that we were still extremely |
[1073.26 --> 1077.78] early days we were still trying to figure out what it even meant to build a complete front-end stack |
[1077.78 --> 1084.38] and the vast majority of the javascript ecosystem unlike the rails ecosystem which dhh is so used to |
[1084.38 --> 1089.12] hates the idea of building shared solutions everybody wants to build their own thing everybody |
[1089.12 --> 1094.22] wants people are so afraid of falling behind that they're willing to go and look at uh they're willing |
[1094.22 --> 1097.48] to try every new thing that comes out just to make sure that they don't miss something important |
[1097.48 --> 1104.24] so what ends up what ended up happening is dhh went he took a look at the situation i believe he uh his |
[1104.24 --> 1108.68] team tried to use backbone backbone is so far away from the philosophy of rails that it's not at all |
[1108.68 --> 1115.10] surprising to me that he considered it a total failure and then we ember at the time was completely |
[1115.10 --> 1119.86] unready to deal with people who were trying to do it we were we were we were pioneers essentially we |
[1119.86 --> 1123.10] were exploring the space we were trying to figure out what it even meant to build the front |
[1123.10 --> 1128.98] front-end application so today we saw ember sort of gets attacked or so ember is basically under |
[1128.98 --> 1133.78] attack from two sides there's one side where people are saying people are looking at ember as if it was |
[1133.78 --> 1139.84] the equivalent of a thing like react or backbone or angular and i mean angular 1.0 here angular 2.0 is |
[1139.84 --> 1145.20] trying to push a different direction but they look at ember and they say well it's you know the javascript |
[1145.20 --> 1149.58] community doesn't have this idea of convention over configuration they don't have this idea of trying |
[1149.58 --> 1154.30] to build a community around things i think if you're from rails it can feel it can feel very frustrating |
[1154.30 --> 1161.14] and you many people don't even really take a close look at ember to see these days if it or if it does |
[1161.14 --> 1165.86] it feels like rails right i don't mean feels programmatically like rails i mean feels like |
[1165.86 --> 1171.74] that kind of ecosystem where people are pushing forward um and then on and the other side so you |
[1171.74 --> 1176.14] have people from rails saying oh my god it looks like the javascript ecosystem is crazy and then on |
[1176.14 --> 1179.90] the other side you have all the javascript people saying oh my god how could you build such a large |
[1179.90 --> 1184.96] monolithic vertically integrated stack this is clearly terrible and so there's just a noise around ember |
[1184.96 --> 1189.06] uh is a little bit different because of the ecosystem and the noise around rails |
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[1261.52 --> 1268.70] so do you think that the just the the the pioneering that has been going on and maybe perhaps the |
[1268.70 --> 1275.90] fragmentation and the ecosystem leads to um less than reliable javascript apps at the end of the day |
[1275.90 --> 1283.56] i think if you have the right abstractions you can absolutely build great javascript apps and and this is |
[1283.56 --> 1290.34] i i think where uh the the server rendered camp is a little bit wrong you know you can you can |
[1290.34 --> 1295.90] introduce a lot of complexity on top of people's existing stacks and they're willing to accept it |
[1295.90 --> 1302.10] but in order to get really really truly great performance out of a server rendered app like |
[1302.10 --> 1306.92] something written in rails you have to add a lot of complexity and that's complexity that if you just |
[1306.92 --> 1311.10] build the app in ember that you you don't have to deal with just to get that kind of performance |
[1311.10 --> 1317.48] right because you're moving the logic from the server to the user's browser there's nothing there's |
[1317.48 --> 1324.00] no cash in the world that is going to be faster than that right now if you're in a a really seasoned |
[1324.00 --> 1329.96] rails veteran you've got the stack you're super productive it doesn't really surprise me that |
[1329.96 --> 1335.00] people are kind of going to calcify into that right because they're super productive especially as the |
[1335.00 --> 1339.54] javascript ecosystem matures but there's going to be a day when the industry shifts and a lot of the |
[1339.54 --> 1344.14] people who have calcified on server rendering i think are going to end up with products that are being |
[1344.14 --> 1348.72] smoked by the competition because to be honest with you if you use a javascript app a really well |
[1348.72 --> 1353.26] done javascript app it does all the routing on the client side it has really rich interactions that |
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