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[1353.26 --> 1358.10] just aren't possible when you have to have the browser and the server coordinate you use an app |
[1358.10 --> 1364.02] like that it feels so great it feels so fast going back to something that has to talk to a server just |
[1364.02 --> 1369.62] feels antiquated and again there are things you can do you know russian doll caching and so on but they |
[1369.62 --> 1373.98] introduce a lot of complexity especially for loot for new learners who may not be familiar with the |
[1373.98 --> 1378.94] stack now here's an additional concept you have to learn and a lot of people are on crappy wi-fi |
[1378.94 --> 1385.20] networks they're on slow 3g networks it doesn't matter how fast your app renders on the server if the |
[1385.20 --> 1392.36] pipe to get to them is slow so maybe for our listeners um maybe either of you could give maybe a |
[1392.36 --> 1397.40] couple ember apps that you think are like really well written javascript apps obviously obviously there's |
[1397.40 --> 1402.00] skylight which is your guys's product surely that which is the best one by far we like skylight if |
[1402.00 --> 1407.08] you want to see like the reference implementation skylight.io by the way yeah okay and i know heroku |
[1407.08 --> 1411.72] built their new dashboard oh that's gorgeous which is really nice are there any others just off the |
[1411.72 --> 1416.40] top of your head you know there's a wide range and kind of surprising you know i think uh maybe a year |
[1416.40 --> 1423.10] or two ago there was this meme that javascript is really great for you know toolbox apps or editor apps |
[1423.10 --> 1427.96] where you have to do a lot of interactivity and you have to log in you know uh any kind of like |
[1427.96 --> 1432.30] editing or management or any kind of creative thing but for content sites content sites obviously |
[1432.30 --> 1437.58] javascript is totally inappropriate but there's two major content sites that i can think of off the top |
[1437.58 --> 1443.68] of my head uh which is vine uh the twitter's video sharing app their whole web experience is an |
[1443.68 --> 1450.56] ember app it's vine.co uh and bustle is the other one uh bustle is like a pretty very successful uh kind |
[1450.56 --> 1456.64] of like women's news website bustle.com and the entire front end is ember and you can really feel |
[1456.64 --> 1460.64] it as you click around man it responds so so quickly and you wonder how the heck do they get |
[1460.64 --> 1466.48] it this fast and it's because it's a number app cool yeah and i think in terms of non-content sites uh |
[1466.48 --> 1472.48] discourse and ghost are two open people often ask about open source projects discourse and ghost are |
[1472.48 --> 1477.26] two open source projects that are written in ember and i think do a reasonably good job discourse is |
[1477.26 --> 1481.52] really really fanatical about performance so maybe if you go look at it you'll find some stuff that |
[1481.52 --> 1485.76] they do to really squeeze the last drop of performance out um ghost is a little bit more |
[1485.76 --> 1490.70] idiomatic but both of them are examples of real world fairly large and complicated ember applications |
[1490.70 --> 1494.80] that work and those are both open source so you can go take a peek under the hood and see how |
[1494.80 --> 1499.04] basically see how the sausage gets made and i think we're both pretty proud about how they turned out |
[1499.04 --> 1504.24] they're not these incomprehensible messes they actually i just love the fact that when i go look at ghost or |
[1504.24 --> 1510.34] or discourse or travis which is also um which is also uh an ember app that's open source and i go |
[1510.34 --> 1515.58] look around to try to get my head around what's going on it's pretty easy for me having rarely |
[1515.58 --> 1519.50] looked at this code base to get a sense of what's going on where things are located and all that |
[1519.50 --> 1524.58] which is a thing i got used to being true about rails but is rarely the case in javascript applications |
[1524.58 --> 1529.34] right when you drop into most open source projects it's like oh my gosh where do i even begin you kind |
[1529.34 --> 1532.12] of have to survey the entire code base just to even start adding a feature |
[1532.12 --> 1536.80] um but because of ember strong conventions i can drop into something like discourse or ghost or |
[1536.80 --> 1541.14] travis and i want to change this template i know exactly where the temple is because it's based on |
[1541.14 --> 1546.86] what the url i'm looking at is yep cool we'll link those up in the show notes for for the listeners to |
[1546.86 --> 1552.52] go click through and check out um but let's let's look to the future now so 10 days ago i'm looking here |
[1552.52 --> 1560.88] at uh a post on the ember js github the road to ember 2.0 rfc tom posted this i'm sure he didn't |
[1560.88 --> 1564.78] necessarily write the whole thing itself it looks like this was a community effort you know it just |
[1564.78 --> 1572.82] came to me in the shower and i wrote it down um but man well thought out first of all i mean i |
[1572.82 --> 1578.38] appreciate how much thought you guys are putting into into the software because that can only lead |
[1578.38 --> 1585.00] to good things but um maybe just high level summary i think if maybe i'll i'll give you what i think it |
[1585.00 --> 1591.78] says and you can you know refute or or uh say i'm right uh major points um that you made in this |
[1591.78 --> 1597.46] is that this is not going to be a big big bang rewrite you're trying to have stability with without |
[1597.46 --> 1603.50] stagnation this is a phrase you guys used um you had some big bets in 2014 you have some more big bets |
[1603.50 --> 1609.34] for the future a lot of this comes from learning from the community you're going to be simplifying |
[1609.34 --> 1615.60] things which is always nice especially when you had a thing that's been evolving over time um and |
[1615.60 --> 1619.42] you have some big features that you talk about there at the end is that is that a top level pretty |
[1619.42 --> 1623.70] good or did i miss something yeah i think probably the only major thing that people have talked about |
[1623.70 --> 1630.66] that is top level relevant is that a lot of the ideas that we got for ember 2.0 that are starting |
[1630.66 --> 1637.08] to land already actually came from uh the react project so react is a pretty great project i think |
[1637.08 --> 1642.22] they've been doing cool stuff they call themselves just the view layer um but their view layer has |
[1642.22 --> 1647.26] some really great ideas in it and a lot of the ways that we're thinking about simplifying going forward |
[1647.26 --> 1652.06] has been adopting some of the ideas from the react project cool now let's let's go back to the |
[1652.06 --> 1657.92] beginning the big bang rewrite to me okay so i've done some angular apps i've done i've done uh one ember |
[1657.92 --> 1664.38] app um which was about a year and a half ago before you guys were 1.0 and this seemed like a shot |
[1664.38 --> 1669.86] right across the angular bow here after their announcements uh at ng europe yeah i think a lot |
[1669.86 --> 1676.12] of people felt like we were trying to capitalize on their uh misfortune because i think yeah like |
[1676.12 --> 1681.78] the the stuff they announced actually wasn't new uh you know all the details had been out in the |
[1681.78 --> 1686.32] public for you know what at least six months uh but i think the way that they they presented it |
[1686.32 --> 1691.92] maybe um scared some people yeah scared some people they reacted pretty strongly to it yeah so i think a lot |
[1691.92 --> 1699.04] of people thought that we saw this news and you know started you know we went back to our dark |
[1699.04 --> 1703.50] smoky room and we're like how can we nail these guys um but the truth unfortunately is a little bit |
[1703.50 --> 1710.02] more boring um all of the all the plans all the details essentially that you see in that document |
[1710.02 --> 1717.00] were from the last two core team meetings now the most recent core team meeting very coincidentally |
[1717.00 --> 1722.98] was scheduled months in advance for around the time when the angular 2.0 announcement was was made |
[1722.98 --> 1728.20] um so the timing certainly looks suspicious i will i will grant people that but i promise you that |
[1728.20 --> 1734.28] i have an email list showing this is scheduled months in advance um and so the last two core team |
[1734.28 --> 1738.98] meetings we like to do face-to-face meetings with the core team we all fly into some city everyone |
[1738.98 --> 1744.12] pays out of pocket so it's really awesome of them and i thank all the core team members for you know |
[1744.12 --> 1748.88] really paying out of pocket to contribute to this open source project anyway how big is that team |
[1748.88 --> 1755.08] it's like 11 people now wow that's a big that's a big meeting that yeah it's a big meeting so we all |
[1755.08 --> 1761.76] fly into last time i think we did uh new york this time we did chicago and we all sit in a in a |
[1761.76 --> 1765.66] conference room for like eight hours over the weekend eight hours per day over the weekend and we |
[1765.66 --> 1772.44] try to really nail down the details of the roadmap of the framework and um everyone on the core team |
[1772.44 --> 1778.80] has a product that is built using ember or has clients who have products built using ember |
[1778.80 --> 1786.72] and so the commitment to stability without stagnation was not just to you know try to get back at angular |
[1786.72 --> 1792.86] i don't think anyone on the team is that petty it was simply the fact that we have strong incentives |
[1792.86 --> 1797.26] not to break anything because we've all got apps that we make our livelihoods from and i think on the |
[1797.26 --> 1801.18] flip side of of breaking things i think all of us have applications that are competing |
[1801.18 --> 1807.62] working with much bigger players we're running startups working with small companies and we can't |
[1807.62 --> 1815.78] afford to let the opinions of ember from 2011 calcify and control what we're able to do in 2015 so i think |
[1815.78 --> 1819.60] it was really important it's important for us to continue to look at what's going on and make sure |
[1819.60 --> 1826.20] that the cutting edge of what's possible on the web is also possible in ember so these are basically the |
[1826.20 --> 1831.20] two uh things that were the two pressures that seem very contradictory and actually kind of |
[1831.20 --> 1838.10] interestingly a lot of the response to the angular uh the angular announcement was well you need to |
[1838.10 --> 1842.18] make progress so what else other choice do you have you have to break everything and and i sort of think |
[1842.18 --> 1846.20] about think about it the opposite which is if you're breaking everything all the time then how do you ever |
[1846.20 --> 1852.12] get anything done right so you need to figure out a way it's basically like uh just it's a little |
[1852.12 --> 1856.88] harder and it requires more thought but it's not like we're the first people in the world to ever |
[1856.88 --> 1863.62] figure out a way to to improve the situation to make things more cutting edge without stagnating and |
[1863.62 --> 1867.66] in fact the web is all about that right the last five years everybody says moving at web speed but |
[1867.66 --> 1871.96] what is the web all about the web is all about not breaking the web while still adding the features |
[1871.96 --> 1878.42] right it's exactly this i i sort of found it ironic that people were using the web speed as a as a |
[1878.42 --> 1882.76] explanation for why you have to break everything all the time when the web as its prime directive |
[1882.76 --> 1887.76] has you can't break anything ever you know it's just annoying like trying to move things forward in a |
[1887.76 --> 1894.56] backwards compatible way requires a lot more time and it's it's just annoying to do as an engineer it's |
[1894.56 --> 1899.70] just annoying and and so that's why i think it's so important to use open source projects that are |
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